If no seperation of church & state....

Discussion in 'Religious Discussions' started by 45Auto, Nov 1, 2012.

  1. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Messages:
    8,214
    Location:
    West Tennessee
    It is not there, to the horror of liberal atheists who WANT it there.

    Activist judges have recently (compared to the age of the constitution) made a series of decisions that PRETEND the non-establishment clause means 'separation'. This was not, of course, the original intent of the constitution, which is quite evident by the strong Judao-Christian influences in the decor of earlier Federal buildings, the public school system, our monetary design and our national motto.

    But, thanks to these judges, we are well on the way to a complete separation of our nation from Christian values. It already is reflected in our crime rate, divorce rate, growth of sexual deviance, falling academic achievement, and general decline of morality here.
    Madaline Maurine O'hare would be so proud - if she were not otherwise occupied trying to beat the heat.
  2. BlackEagle

    BlackEagle Well-Known Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,352
    Location:
    UK
    There is a major difference between freedom of religion and "freedom from" religion.

    The former is what the founding fathers intended, so that no particular church would be favored over another. As already said, they had just come from a country in which the king called the religious tune and made sure the country fell into line, using military force where necessary.

    In Europe, the church was calling the tune for the state; the Inquisition was one of the means used to make the people toe the line.

    Freedom from religion is what Terry is addressing--a relatively recent development prompted by athiests who bring lawsuits against traditional values using twisted interpretations of the Constitution. Their intention is to squash freedom of expression and freedom to practice the Christian religion openly.
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
  3. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Messages:
    8,214
    Location:
    West Tennessee
    Oddly, this attack is always centered upon Christianity.
    Christian kids are prohibited from having a prayer at commencement speeches, for instance.
    But at the same time, Wiccan's are invited into the public school classroom to educate the children about their beliefs.

    And Muslims are invited into public school classrooms to educate the children about their beliefs.

    BOTH of these last two have happened within 20 miles of where I live, and no "separation" backers have had one word of complaint.
  4. BlackEagle

    BlackEagle Well-Known Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,352
    Location:
    UK
    True, Terry;
    I guess I was disregarding the false religions in my thinking. Satan wants to squash Christianity any way he can, including promoting false religions.
  5. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    5,450
    Location:
    Indiana
    I started off responding to each complaint as though there were merit and we were debating, but I eventually began to see all of this as fluffy argument without substance. And I responded in kind. :p

    Again, I like the separation we currently have. But I'm not going to off on some doomsday prediction nonsense like this. :rolleyes:

    I should have just gone to bed an hour ago. :D
  6. tcox4freedom

    tcox4freedom Well-Known Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,374
    Location:
    South Carolina USA
    All arguments against the TRUTH usually are. God's Word of TRUTH is forever settled in Heaven. Soon, it will be settled here in the Earth.

    -
  7. BlackEagle

    BlackEagle Well-Known Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,352
    Location:
    UK
    Well, Josh, I'm glad you didn't. It made interesting reading.
    I saw the post before I put my .02 in, but decided not to address it directly.

    I think of Proverbs 26:4-5:

    Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself.

    Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

    I followed the first verse, you followed the second. :D
  8. Model195Fan

    Model195Fan Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2011
    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    MA
    markfh,

    Thank you for posting. As you know, the Constitution does not call, explicitly or implicitly, for separation of church and State. Nor does it prohibit an establishment of religion by any of the States. Rather, in the face of a handful of State-established religions, it prohibited the federal Congress from making any law respecting an establishment of religion. Congress could thus neither outlaw existing or future State establishments of religion, nor make one itself. Furthermore, it could make no law prohibiting the free exercise thereof (of religion).

    Thank you for continuing to remind us of the actual words of the Constitution. It is needed.

    195
  9. 45Auto

    45Auto Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2008
    Messages:
    1,255
    The comments about Islam, remind me of the life and times of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.
    After WWI and a war with the Greeks, Ataturk became president of Turkey. As president, Ataturk believed that excessive religion in government was holding Turkey back from becoming a modern state. Leading a new modern age, Ataturk made it illegal for women to wear a chador in public and he outlawed the fez for men. It was not that Ataturk made Islam itself illegal, he only wanted to free Turkey from the burdens of a religious government.
    To provide some historic background on the issue, it must be remembered that in his younger years, Kamal was an Ottoman Army officer. The Empire was both extremely religious and extremely corrupt. This was largely to blame for the backwardness of their empire.
    Now forward to today. The secular Turkish Govt. founded by Ataturk has been a great blessing to the region. For example, prior to 1918 the Turks considered it their religious duty to hold and control Palestine. Now, the modern secular Turks see no reason to be militarily involved in the issue. If the Turks had been hell bent on recapturing Palestine, there might not be a modern state of Israel.

    Let’s all pray that the secular vision of Kamal Ataturk will continue into the future.
  10. Archie

    Archie Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2005
    Messages:
    336
    Location:
    Hastings, Nebraska; the Heartland!
    I suggest we - the United States - already has a state religion.

    Secular Humanism - a sect of Marxism or Leftism - is the strongest 'religion' in the United States.

    The main tenets of the sect are materialism, self-centeredness, a feeling of entitlement and a general disregard for any authority other than one's self. And - it is sponsored by tax collection from the general public.
  11. Old Grump

    Old Grump New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2,320
    Location:
    Little hut in the woods near Blue River Wisconsin
    That is not a religion but a philosophy and a rather poor one at that.

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
    The way I read it is the state cannot tell me what religion I should have and they cannot stop me from exercising my right to worship whoever, whenever or ho ever I wish.

    I believe all the court rulings against the practice of religion just because it is in a public forum is wrong. Saying a prayer in a public place is not forcing your particular religion on anybody and a godless atheist who objects should not be able to impose his will on the majority who do not object to a prayer or a religious symbol in public. I find it interesting that the only two groups making any noise and object to any religious activity in public are the Atheists and the Muslims. Ignorant people that continue to spout the 'separation of church and state' line are doing everybody a disservice and making themselves look stupid.
  12. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Messages:
    8,214
    Location:
    West Tennessee
    Amen, Archie -

    And Amen, Old Grump -

    Whether or not Secular Humanism is a religion kinda depends on your definition of religion.
    Definition 2 from Dictionary.com is "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion"
    Using that definition, secular humanism, atheism, etc., can be considered religious beliefs.
    And the way their adherants go BALISTIC when their tenets are exposed as false, they certainly ACT like it is a religion -
  13. 45Auto

    45Auto Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2008
    Messages:
    1,255
    How is it that "secular humanism" is "sponsored by tax collection from the general public" here in the U.S.A.? In the U.S., established religions are exempt from the payment of taxes, but atheists and secular humanists are not organized to be exempt from taxes as religious groups.

    In light of the original call of the question, I had no idea the US had so many atheists and humanists! The last I checked, the overwelming majority of Americans identify themselfs as Christians. A rather small % of Americans id as having no religion.
  14. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Messages:
    8,214
    Location:
    West Tennessee
    Actually, both secular humanists and atheists have tax exempt organizations.

    Humanists

    Atheists

    And both are tax-supported through our public educational system, which cannot mention Christianity or Christian values, but have secular humanism and atheism both mandated as part of their curriculum.
  15. 45Auto

    45Auto Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2008
    Messages:
    1,255
    I stand corrected Terry, as to the tax exempt 503(c) status. Now, if you could fill me in on the, "public educational system, which cannot mention Christianity or Christian values, but have secular humanism and atheism both mandated as part of their curriculum." I have had kids in public schools and I never noticed any classes such as these.
  16. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Messages:
    8,214
    Location:
    West Tennessee
    That one is really easy, 45auto.

    Any of the Judao-Christian religions teach that God created the universe.
    Atheists teach that the universe came into being through natural processes.
    Which is taught in public schools?

    Judao-Christian religions teach that God created life.
    Atheists teach that life came about through a random set of chemicals coincidentally coming together in the proper proportions, even though it is still not possible to prove this is even possible.
    Which is taught in the public schools?

    Judao-Christian religions teach that there are fundamental things that are RIGHT and others that are WRONG.
    Secular Humanism teaches that there are no universal standards of right and wrong.
    Which is taught in public schools?

    Judao-Christian religions teach that a marriage is a union of a man and a woman before God.
    Secular Humanism teaches that it is a union of two (or maybe more, who knows) people in a legal contract.

    Considering "Heather has two mommies", which is taught in the public schools?

    I could go on and on, but this should suffice.
  17. 45Auto

    45Auto Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2008
    Messages:
    1,255
    Thank you Terry. That's a long list of issues. It seems that you are assuming that because atheists and secular humists are compassionate to homosexuals and believe in science that if the shools are teaching science and compassion then the schools must be teaching students to be atheists and secular humanists. I'm not sure this connection works all that well.

    For one thing, there are many scientists who attend church and believe in God. But these Christians also think Darwin was correct and that the earth was not created in 7 days. There appears to be a wide range of thought within the community of Christians.

    And thus the question: Within the wide range of Christian thought and practice which Christian sect would the U.S.A. embrace as the National Religion?
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
Similar Threads
Forum Title Date
Religious Discussions Does nepotism occur in your church? Aug 14, 2013
Religious Discussions Lots of resources on Church and State May 20, 2013
Religious Discussions Wolves in church Apr 27, 2013
Religious Discussions What's the Deacon's Role in Your Church? Apr 25, 2013
Religious Discussions A funny thing happened on the way to church this morning... Jan 21, 2013

Share This Page