[Information?] Bunney, London antique gun

Discussion in 'Black Powder Shooting / Muzzleloaders / Handguns' started by Inspiron, Jun 13, 2008.

  1. Inspiron

    Inspiron New Member

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    Hi Guys


    Recently i have had this "Bunney, London" gun handed down to me. However ,not being a Gun fanatic i don't know much information about it. I have taken a few photos for you guy's to look at.


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    Under the barrels is the numbers 3 and 4 and on the handle is an inscription which looks like "HR".

    As you can see there is some damage to the top of the trigger, i am aware 1or 2 of the screw's have also been replaced.

    If anyone know's anything about these "Bunney, London" gun's then please enlighten me.

    Thanks in advance


    Brad
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2008
  2. Little Rooster

    Little Rooster New Member

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    Wish I could help..try posting it at the Curios and Relics thread here at FF, You might send the pics to NRA also
  3. Inspiron

    Inspiron New Member

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    Ah , ok .

    I was slightly unsure about the section to post this under.

    NRA?
  4. Little Rooster

    Little Rooster New Member

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    National Rifle Assoication
  5. jjmitchell60

    jjmitchell60 Active Member

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    What you have is a pre-police gun or travelers gun. IF I had it in my hands to check a few thinks could tell you more but here is teh idea or close anyways.

    Back before there were a standing police force, travelers in Europe (England mainly) were known to get roobbed on the trips from one city to another by high way men. Thaat gun was meant to be carried by a traveler, one with lots of moeny by the lavish engravings and inlays plus over lays; to fend for him self in case his coach was robbed. One thing that makes me wonder is doe sboth barrels go off at once (which I suspect it does) or do the select fire between them? IF you can post a picture with the frizzen in teh up position to show the pan and inside where the hammer/striker striles, that would tell a lot. That gun could have been md by any number of gun smiths, jewlry makers, clock makers, or who knows who. IF not a reproduction (which I doubt it is) I would say itis an early 18th century piece. ONLY plase I would say to find th best answers are from people at the NMLRA. Some of them know their stuff, also there is an auctioneer on the History Channel who does a lot of reference work for them, he very well could help to tell you exactly what you have so ciontact the History Channel (I forget the mans name but his collection is VAST). Hope this helps some.
  6. Inspiron

    Inspiron New Member

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    I am not sure if this is the part you wanted a picture of, i am not sure weather the gun fires twice or once. As you can see there is almost a safety catch to open up the first barrel.

    Maybe the picture's will explain this better.

    Open
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    Closed
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    Thanks for your reply.
  7. jjmitchell60

    jjmitchell60 Active Member

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    That is an ODD one. The extra pis do not help at all like i thought they would, HUGE suprise to me!!! I will ask around abpout this hand gun BUT it is a defensive hand gun used t ward off highway men (robbers). I also see that part of it is missing or seems to be. There shoyld be a hammer that comes down and strikes the frizzen, the cover or safety as you called it does allow it to fire one barrel at a time or both barrels at once. You need a good book on English hand guns of the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. That should help identify it. Go to the local library and see if tehre are any books they can get you through inter-library loan that will help. Still you need to know the hammer is missing, it hooks onto the piece on top that is between the 2 screws. Hope this helps, I know it is not much but man that is an odd piece.
  8. Little Rooster

    Little Rooster New Member

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    The 2 post have revealed the same thing. I honestly thought it was a type of boarding pistol.. Some good learning here.


    On the left side of the frame, there appears to be a thumb lever is that to cock it?
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2008
  9. TranterUK

    TranterUK Guest

    I am sure the lever is a safety, you cocked it by pulling the 'hammer', or 'cock' to the rear. If it slipped before it was all the way back it 'went off half cocked' get it?
  10. jjmitchell60

    jjmitchell60 Active Member

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    I agree with TranterUK as to the cocking. Actually the hammer is missing. It would sit on top of the pistol. The side lever slides a shield across over the flash pan to allow for it to NOT go off and to allow for one barrel at a tme to be shot so it seems. Are there 2 shields that cover BOTH flash holes the farther you pull the lever back? IF so it is a safety, a shield to allow one barrel to fire, and allows both barrels to be foired at once. The hammer sits in the top piece on teh pistol where the 3 screws are in a triangloe. 2 screws across from one anotehr and another back towards the web of the hand. Look at the back screw on top of the pistol where the engraving comes up toward the barrel. That engraving goes right to where the hammer piece (the piece that holds the flint) would sit into that grooved piece. IF you look at this flint pistol at this link, you will get an idea as to what pieceis missing on top of your pistol:
    http://http://www.maxarmory.com/index.php?p=product&id=1219&parent=90

    As to a bording pistol, could be BUT rather say it was not. A bording pistol woulod not have it so as to fire one barrel at a time. They would fire both barrels at once and have a laynard probably in the face one the butt to slip a laynard through so as to hang from your neck while fighting. Also it is pretty ornate for a bording pistol, more of a gentlemans piece with all the carving, inlay, and over lay on it. I am betting it is sterling silver all over it, could be wrong and be peweter but probably not.
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2008
  11. TranterUK

    TranterUK Guest

    The Hammer is broken off, you can see where. It happened quite a lot. It is without doubt a common boxlock flintlock pocket pistol, for self defense, +/- 1800. It is not a 'boarding' pistol. I think anyone boarding a ship in this period, facing the cutlass, axe, spear and musket would be a brave man carrying that.

    Google antique guns, find a dealers site and go to pocket pistols, you will see many.
  12. jjmitchell60

    jjmitchell60 Active Member

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    Even with the hammer broken off, it is worth a good it BUT there are people in the Black Powder community that can fix that broken hammer with out taking very little if any of the value away from the gun. Replacing the hammer will not be too cheap but you will regain more than it cost to replace it in value, one thing to rememebr is as ornate as the pistol is, the hammer would be ornate as well.

    TranterUK, how hard is it to buy and SHOOT oldr english wheel locks, flint locks, and percussion guns in the uK. I am looking for a pair of Scottish flint pistols from the time period of 1770 to 1780 or even Irish made ones.
  13. TranterUK

    TranterUK Guest

    Shooting original antique guns is not always a good idea. The chance of doing damage to the weapon is high as against the cost, which is also generally high. For most repros are the way to go.

    Wheel locks are the oldest on your list and very expensive, few would fire an original. Flint locks are a little more reasonable but you can still pay more than $4000.00 for an average one. The percussion locks are the most recent on your list and I know many people in the US shoot original percussion weapons. Scottish pistols are traditionally all steel and quite collectable, and thus expensive.

    Never try it without lots of homework as to the loads, size of ball etc. and only use Black Powder, light loads. I would also let a qualified gunsmith check the gun before use.

    I will admit to having fired many original firearms over the years, and had a huge amount of pleasure doing so. The oldest would have been a Brown Bess Musket c.1800. The coolest had to be an Adams 38 bore (.5") 5 shot DA only percussion revolver with an 8" barrel c.1855. Wow! :D

    I suggest you google antique gun dealers in the UK. There are several and we have a huge number of antique guns. It's about $2 to the £1 at the moment. I know people in the industry here and have helped buyers abroad before now so if you need help, shout.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2008
  14. jjmitchell60

    jjmitchell60 Active Member

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    The only reason I ask about older guns in the UK is because I have been shooting black powder guns for 30 years. I shoot many originals and reproductions. I own at leat 25 and probably closer to 40 black powder firearms of all types. I have shot many an original first pattern Brown Bess, several 1777 Charlevilles as well as a few fowlers that predate both those modeals. I have shot an dactually own some guns made in the US from teh time period of the late 1700s, yes rigth about the American Revolution, as well as some percuission guns fom teh 1840s clear up to the 1880s. I have a 22 caliber parlor rifle that is dated 1881, it was used to shoot for drinks in a saloon, and I rgularly shoot it. My daughter placed 4th in the St 4-H shooting sports with it several years ago. I have a very rare civil war gun, a Burden rifle, made by a man named Burden in the county I live in here in KY. he and his brothers who apprenticed under him made 50 or so for a complete company of federal soldiers from Ohio called the Burden Rifles. These Burden rifles are 38 caliber, 1/2 stock,have a 1/5" long nipple, and extremely heavy (on 1.25 flats) and every man of the unit was used as a sniper in many battles. I am well aware of shooting older VP guns but was wondering if prices had dropped a bit since last time I received one from across the pond. It was a Scottisk black watch pistol, yes all metal, but about 4" longer than teh normal as to barrel length. It was pone of a pair of horse pistols, where the other got off to is anyones guess. I have since sold it (actually gave it) to a buddy who does the British side of the Re-enactments we do. He has several horse pistols made in Ireland during the 1770s and1780s, seems many Broitish officers got their personal guns from Irish companies due to cost and due to very well made furearms. Funny how a british officer was expected to furnish his own horse pistols but then again most were men of some higher place in British society

    Yes I am very well versed in shooting older black powder guns. I do know what to watch for and have shot about every kind including an original wheel lock. Sadly teh one thing you had to watch on teh wheel locks happened on this one to the owner, he over wound the spring (wheel) this breaking teh spring. It has not been fixed due to teh fact of finding some one who knows how to fix it. they were made as fine as Swiss clocks and it takes some one well versed in the mechanics of a fine swiss clock to fix one PROPERLY.

    Used 1st pattern Brown Besses can be bought here in teh states for around $1500 to $2500 US. Now you get into more ornate or unusual gun, the price climbs extremely fast. One like the hand gun this thread is about in excellent working condition would bring in the $4K to $5K range depending on who wants is and if the over lay is silver, then it could doubloe in price.

    As to the American revolutio, why is it the British are so anal when it comes to researching their military archives from that time period. a friend who was in the US Army was stationed in England for a bit. he went to research a certain battle we re-enact each year here in the states to get the Brits view of what happened (the indians and teh Brits slaughtered the KY militia that day0 but he had to jump through hoops, and ittook fore ever to see the few records on teh battle. he was in a room and guarded at all times while reading them also. he and i thought it very odd but at least wegot the otehr side's view of teh battle.

    Thanks for the info, I will look up some old contacts I ahd in teh antique BP firearm business (some in the UK, some in Ireland, and one in France) and see if they have any thing I would be interested in that I could afford with things as high as teh are here now.
  15. TranterUK

    TranterUK Guest

    Well JJmitchell, I hadn't realised we were so anal about military research. I cant say I've had that problem, :) not after a good English breakfast anyway.

    Your right about the British officers at that time having to buy their own kit. The uniform alone made up a large part of the cost. In addition they had to buy rank and promotion, taking another officers place when he retired or was killed. It's no wonder really that they did so badly against the Americans.

    Given your experience with older guns, and you clearly have a few, I hope you wont mind If I ask you some thing's, for example the revolutionary army were armed with which long guns. Really, I have never been clear on that one?

    By the way, while I realise you have been a member here much longer than me, you will have to excuse the way I write. Having written for the shooting press I am always aware anyone can read my copy, and write with that in mind.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2008

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