insurance replacement values

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by proudhoosier, Feb 10, 2007.

  1. proudhoosier

    proudhoosier New Member

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    I have recently received several long guns from my grandfather and was curious about the values. I have checked them in the blue book and wanted to check to see if these were consistent as to what I should have them insured for. Thanks for any help.
    1. Winchester Model 74, 22 L.R. Serial # 320xxxa. Stock and bluing are 98% The bore and rifling looks to be perfect. My grandfather took pride in how well kept these gun were. It also has a 4x32 monoscope with redfield base and rings. Shot 100rds through it last night and it shoots very well.

    2. Remington model 510 target master. Single shot, barrel marked 22 short long or long rifle. No serial number, manufacture code ck after the ck there is a symbol the looks like two letter P's joined back to back. Bluing is 98%, stock has a normal amount of wear that shows that it has been carried but never looks like it was abused. I shot this gun last night as well and at 25yds with open ramp type sights it is a real tack driver.

    3. Ithaca featherlight repeater, Model 37 standard grade, 20 ga, 26" barrel imp cyl. Take down model. This was my grandfather's carry choice for both deer and rabbit. The bluing is about 95%, stock is 80% forend is 98%. Serial number 7967xx-1. The gun still has the original sale tag with matching serial number. I shot 20 rifled slugs through it last night. It was very accurate, it also has a williams sight on it. The action is good and bore is near perfect.

    4. Winchester model 1897, barrel marked 12 full. 30" barrel has not been cut, has a single bead. Action and barrel have matching serial number's.
    Serial number 863xx. Action has an additional c marked over serial number.
    The bluing is original but is less than 15%. The forend has a crack in it and the stock is scratched up a bit, but overall in good shape. I have been working some linseed oil into the wood, but have no intentions of touching the bluing. I have not shot this gun but the action works great. I will probably get some low brass shells and shoot it a few times. My grandfather is 78 and he said he remembers his father carrying the gun. Grandpa said he won a lot of turkey shoots with the gun and always had people trying to buy it because of that.

    I know that none of the guns are worth a lot of money but are family heirlooms. That makes them worth a lot to me. I have no intentions of selling them just want to make sure they are properly insured. Thanks again for any help you can offer and God bless.
  2. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Most homeowners' policies have the option of 'separately scheduled' coverage, at the price of higher premiums, for the separately scheduled items.
    Most 'Homeowner' policies limit casualty loss, due to burglary, water, etc to ten to twenty percent of the total value of the dwelling; in my case, I am no 'insurance pro', but, fortunately, both my agent and my daughter, are!
    I do an 'inventory', every year, of my firearms, and a copy goes to Tom, my agent, and Jen, my daughter, with a copy for me, in the safe.
    As it has been, for several years, the guns, at market value, would exceed the worth of the residence they are insured in.
    The reason for separately schuduling property, in my case, is obvious
    If your Ithaca 37 is worth $175, at market value, that's all an insurance company will pay, less (usually) 1% of the total value of the home, as a deductible, meaning that if the shotgun is the only thing taken, you will likely just have to 'suck it up'. If 'separately scheduled', they would be obliged to pay you what you said, (and paid premiums based on) it was worth (to you), which might be $175, or $2000.
    Let me offer another example.
    I have a pistol in the safe, an FN M35 'Hi-Power', which was accurised by Armand Swenson, converted to double action first shot, by Louis Seecamp, and can document all of this; I bought it from the son of the late gunwriter, Tom Furguson.
    Through a third party, I am given to understand that only two such pistols were ever converted, by Seecamp, the one in my safe, and the one Louis sent to FN, for consideration. How does one value a thing, when it is unique, with no 'comparables' anywhere in the marketplace?
    Aside from the fact that Armand was my tutor, mentor, and friend, the pistol has great value for it's provenance.
    Separately scheduled, it will be a $5000 loss, as declared; on a standard 'homeowner policy', a $400 loss, subject to a standard deductible.
    I live in a modest home, in a modest neighborhood, but invest the difference, so to speak, in fine and unique arms.
    I would be 'naked' so far as insurance goes, to their loss, with any other approach. Please consider the potential difference in coverage, and premium, before hitting 'delete'.
    All the best, Terry
  3. The Rifleman

    The Rifleman Former Guest

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    Like he said, insure the guns seperate. Make sure that they know of their value before they write the policy.

    I had a neighbor that lived in a dump - but had good insurance.

    The kids burned down the house and he got more for the place than what it was worth.

    Value of the house - maybe $36,000
    Value of the contents - maybe $8000
    Insurance Company pay off - $75000

    He laughed all the way to the bank.
  4. proudhoosier

    proudhoosier New Member

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    Thanks for the useful advice, I will be in touch with my insurance agent.
  5. Xracer

    Xracer *TFF Admin Staff Mediator*

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    Hi proudhoosier.......welcome to TFF.

    OK, here are the Blue Book values:

    Winchester Model 74:
    98% - $250
    95% - $215

    Scope would add a bit extra, but not much.

    Winchester Model 1897: (#863xx was made in 1898)
    20% - $150
    10% - $125

    Remington 510:
    98% - $150
    95% - $120

    Ithaca Model 37: (Standard Featherlight)
    98% - $225
    95% - $195
    90% - $175
    80% - $160

    I'd suggest you join the NRA.....you can get a fine gun insurance policy thru them.
  6. The Rifleman

    The Rifleman Former Guest

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    Your Blue Book Values only reflect how much a gun dealer might be willing to spend to buy one. Not what one is really worth.

    Sentimental Value is sometimes 200 - 300% more than the actual value of the guns.

    If someone stole one of John Waynes 30-30 Winchesters, do you think that the insurance company could get by with just paying the $500 face value of the gun?

    Yes the NRA is a good source for gun insurance. Just that you have to join the NRA to get the insurance and I don't know of anyone that actually had their guns stolen - that was insured by the NRA that settled a claim with them.

    It would be like getting car insurance from Geico.com

    Yes they have nice television ads, but since there is no agent I would be scared to deal with someone that you couldn't reach out and touch if you have a problem that couldnt be resolved..
  7. It is very good advice, Proud. It is amazing how much money can get tied up in guns over a lifetime (just ask ol' Stash! ;) ), and insurance companies are notorious for underpaying on them if they can get away with it. A separate schedule is definitely the way to go, and that schedule should be reviewed at least once per year; remember, values can change and new guns are often acquired. With agreed upon values, the insurance people don't have much wiggle room. An insurance policy is what is legally known as an 'adhesion contract," which means that since the insurance company writes and sets the terms of the contract, the courts will usually construe any ambiguity in favor of the insured. In other words, get the values in writing! :D
  8. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Ol' Stash ain't that old, dammit!
    But yes, it is easy to spend a lot of money, over the years, and amass a small fortune, a buck at a time, that an insurance company will try to squirm out of paying for, unless the t's are crossed, and the i's dotted.
    The NRA policy is, in my opinion, a bad joke. Never tried to use the coverage, since it is even more limited than a standard Homeowner's policy, as to amount.
    Here's the real deal. You buy a rifle, say, for $400, then put a $300 scope, in $40 rings, on a $35 base, with $50 worth of help, from your gunsmith. The insurance Co says $400 is fair, for the rifle, less, of course, your deductible, but you have spent $825 in real money, for what you have lost!
    Just six modest rifles, like the example, would come $50 shy of $5,000
    I took the hickey, once, that way, but, NEVER AGAIN.
    What Pistol said is spot on. Juries don't particularly like Insurance companies, and if an individual takes the time to schedule property, and pay the additional premiums, they almost always see to it that the loss is fully covered!
    The most important part is to adequately value your belongings.
    I looked at a Forster drill jig, on e-bay, last week, when the auction was still at $70; I have one like it, in the shop, and gave $100 or so, for it, when I bought it, long ago; I'd have given $150, for the one on e-bay, just because that is too cheap! They now are over $400, at Brownell's.
    What is not so apparent, is the drills, bushings, taps, etc, stored in my shop, with my jig, that represent more than twice the cost to replace the jig, itself!
    Guns, tools, whatever, take LOTS of pictures, and store them in several places; they are a tremendous memory aid, should you ever have to figure out exactly what you lost!
  9. Very good point about the pictures, Terry. With the availability of digital cameras today, taking them it's an easy thing to do, and can pay BIG dividends in case of a loss. I take pics of mine and store them on a separate disk kept in a fireproof safe, along with an additional copy stored off premise.
  10. wonderwhippet

    wonderwhippet Active Member

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    If you join the NRA you will receive insurance coverage on your guns up to $1000, I believe. This should pretty much cover the value of the guns ypu listed.
  11. Marlin

    Marlin *TFF Admin Staff Chief Counselor*

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    The only way to have "Replacement Cost" coverage is by a special endorsement on the Homeowner Policy or a separate Sportsman's Policy.

    SoMo and I have a separate schedule on the Homeowners Policy with replacement cost coverage and no deductible on the guns. Each year I make sure that the limit, and the company agrees, shown for each item is the MSRP for the current year plus the going local sales tax. This is what they will pay is there is a loss. Under most circumstances that actually is more than one can actually buy a replacement weapon on the open market. On those that are items not readily available, or collector's items, the amount, again agreed upon by the underwriter at the company, is the current amount one could reasonably expect to pay were he able to find a duplicate item in duplicate condition. Lastly, the premiums are reasonable for the peace of mind given.

    I had a huge loss about twenty years ago when our home was broken into while we were on vacation. Fortunately we had a good scheduled policy at the time and we were able to replace all items with no out of pocket cost to us. The only non-replaceable factor was the sentimental factor. My Uncle's 1903 Springfield he personally carried and used in WWI in France, my very first 22 single shot rifle given me by my father on my 5th birthday and an I-J revolver carried by a member of the family on the streets of Bangor during the teens. I was able to replace two of these items, but they just aren't the same - - NO SENTIMENTAL attachment to the "new" ones.....
  12. Sound advice, Counselor. Personally, I don't ever trust insurance companies to "do the right thing;" I worked for one for too many years. :D They don't employ staffs of attorneys for the benefit of their insureds, but to mitigate losses as much as possible. Nail the contract down tight and have your own attorney review it, especially if there is considerable value at stake.
  13. Marlin

    Marlin *TFF Admin Staff Chief Counselor*

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    At SouthernMoss' side forever!
    We once again find we have more in common, Pistol.

    Before I went to Law School, I was a Senior Fieldman, State Agent and State Manager for the St. Paul Companies, back in the Dark Ages. I was a Commercial Casualty and Professional Liability expert! My last couple years, however, before I went law full time, was as Regional Southeast Manager for the Title Company.
  14. More perhaps then you realize, Marlin. ;) Indeed, my experience in the field (about 25 years) was in land title insurance. Most of that was spent doing high-liability title examination and claims work. :D
  15. Xracer

    Xracer *TFF Admin Staff Mediator*

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    Geez Marlin......another point we have in common. Besides Maine, Connecticut, genuine NY Hard Rolls, WW II aircraft, guns, the NYNH&HRR.....

    You worked for St. Paul.....and for a number of years I was a photographer for Travelers.......now the two have merged as St. Paul-Travelers.

    I'm beginning to think we were twins seperated at birth! :D
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