Is there such a thing as shock armor on a tank

Discussion in 'General Military Arms & History Forum' started by ysacres, Mar 7, 2003.

  1. ysacres

    ysacres Well-Known Member

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    AznientWisdom
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    (2/24/03 2:31:55 am)
    Reply Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    Hi,

    I'm new to the forum, i can't remember if there is such thing as a shock armor. I think it's design is like two piece of armor and in between is some pressure charges, and when it hits the armor the charges explode in a way where it absorb the shock damage to prevent damage done to the main armor. Of course it have to have a pressure system where it can tell a hit from a missile or an cannon shell from bullets, so it does not accidentally discharge the explosives.

    Go Get Beer
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    (2/24/03 4:43:08 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    Welcome to the forums AznientWisdom.

    The only thing that comes close to your description, AFAIK, is reactive armor. Those are little (10x10 inch) packets of explosives, fixed to the armor of the tank, which explode when something hits them hard enough. They then detonate away from the hull, in orded to slow down or divert (ideally so that it ricochets off the hull it would normally penetrate) the penetrator of an APFSDS round (sub-caliber dart, made of Depleted Uranium or Tungsten) or disperse HEAT (shaped charge) warhead's penetrative stream.
    The only drawbacks to such an arrangement is that it can be detonated by ammo which would not normally penetrate the basic hull of the tank or AFV which is equipped with reactive armor (30-40 mm bullets, incendiary rounds of smaller calibers, rounds from older recoilless guns) and the detonation can damage sighting equipment, antennae and other stuff on and around the vehicle.
    Reactive armor is mainly used by militaries which have to rely on vehicles not offering sufficient protection to the crew/passengers (older or Russian-made equipment), but can afford to fit them with the explosives. For example Israelis used them on their M48s and virtually every ex-Warsaw Pact country has some on their tanks.
    The way of defeating reactive armor is hitting the same spot twice, first with a small round (40 mm AA cannon for example) to destroy the protection, then with an Anti-Tank round to reduce the tank to wreck. Alternatively you can use a tandem warhead (two shaped charges, one placed after another, with the rear one detonating with a small delay). First warhead disposes of the reactive elements (if there are any), the second burns through the tank.

    More competent users will be here shortly to correct me if I got anything wrong.

    rayra
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    (2/25/03 4:25:12 pm)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    in a combat situation, you'd be ridiculously luck to hit the same spot twice, except with a weapon with a very high rate of fire. And that weapon wouldn't likely penetrate the base armor on a tank, anyway (though APCs are juicy targets).

    And the US Marines frequently use Reactive armor on the M-60 tanks remaining in service.
    Rich

    AznientWisdom
    Member
    Posts: 2
    (2/26/03 5:07:40 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    i see, they use that kind of armor in older version tanks. The problem with that kind of armor is that it can be set off with a decoy round. I think they should keep developing that type of armor, but modify it to be better because it is a good concept if they can get around the weakness. Since each shell or missile produce different amount of energy or force, then couldn't they make the trigger for the armor respond to the main weapon of most tanks to idenify a decoy round from the main round.

    What if they develop a defensive weapon where they can use ultra-sound that can shatter shell rounds and missles. What about installing a sonar on a tank, since tanks r hollow inside so they can do that ping thing like a sub and detect heat signature. What do u think of my ideas

    rayra
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    (2/26/03 5:48:11 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    Reactive armor is still a modern, developing trend. The US uses it on several vehicles. So do many nations.
    Most Western MBTs don't - they are using some variant of Chobham armor - a Classified sandwich of soft and hard and dense metals (including depleted uranium), and ceramic, which absorbs / deflects the shock and energy.

    As for your ideas - I think they are way out there. Imaginative, but fantastical. Sound like many Hammer's Slammers or Bolo scifi novels. Dreamt of, discussed, but 'practical' today (shrug) who knows what DARPA / Aberdeen are screwing with?
    I've read several white papers about anti-personnel defense systems, and other micro-circuit-controlled reactive concepts, but haven't seen anything about them even being experimentally tested, yet.

    I think you are overestimating what current Reactive Armor is and what it can do - it's essentially nothing more that a metal box filled with high explosive, mounted a few inches away from the main armor. Hit it with a high enough level of energy, it goes >BOOM<, disrupting the plasma jet of a standard H.E.A.T. round.

    Here's a T-72 sporting reactive armor blocks -




    And this is just a model, but it's what our M-60 looks like fully loaded -



    And you usually see the Israelis putting it to great use on their Merkava tanks.

    One of the big downsides of reactive armor is that it has a substantial weight penalty. Especially as it's usually added to protect vehicles that weren't meant for it, and thus don't have strong enough suspensions or enough horsepower. Thus they suffer severe speed reductions. All trade-offs


    Rich

    Go Get Beer
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    (2/26/03 6:05:48 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    Remember that equipping reactive armor with any sensors would raise the cost astronomically, since any electronics would be fried in the explosion or at least thrown away from the tank. Any central system could be damaged, rendering a few tons of explosives on the hull just ballast. Any sophisticated electronics inside the tank would need to connect to outside sensors and every piece of reactive armor, which basically means you'd have to drill holes through the armor.
    Russians are experimenting with a milimeter-radar equipped turret, mounted on top af a normal tank turret, firing double MGs at incoming fire of sufficient size and speed automatically. It's still in the development stages, AFAIK, but promising.
    This is a development of an idea that included the same milimeter radar and a computer, detonating the Reactive armor pre-emptively in the direction of incoming fire only.
    AFAIK modern tanks still can use their smoke grenade launchers for anti-personnel means (firing frag grenades for example). That and remote-controlled MGs (like on the Leclerc) is the only defense if you happen to meet someone running with an anti-tank mine at you.

    AznientWisdom
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    Posts: 3
    (2/26/03 7:34:39 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    The armor has many weakness, i mean a single guy with a Barrett M82A1 could set off the explosives, right?I guess in terms of armor, the M1 abrams is the best so far. It has a great 120mm M256 smoothbore gun, that fires the M8300 HEAT-MP-T and the M829 APFSDS-T which has a depleted uranium penetrator. The secondary weapon is a 12.7mm Browning M2 machine gun with the commander side, loader has 7.56mm M240 machine gun and another one on the right hand side of the main gun. For defensive, it has one L8A1 six-barrelled smoke grenade discharger on each side, its armor uses depleted uranium armor too. The M1 is protected against nuclear, biological, and chemical attacks too. The depleted uranium is cheap, easy accessible, and easy to make.

    They can make flash bangs powerful enough to blind the driver's eyes and the tank's optical senors, to cripple the tank.They could make like ballastic rounds that can explode and create a large area full of reactive fragments, so when shell rounds or missiles pass through it it will ignite them. They could develop a missile on the tank to pierce the ground lightly and come up beneath the enemy's tank, which is usually where it is weakest. They could make a laser targeting system and also make a main missile that can break away into smaller pieces and send a barrage of rockets to systemically hit the exactly the same point in order, when u hit the armor some many times in the same point no matter how strong it it, it will compromises its durability. They could make a more humane way to disable the tank is to make a highly dense missile that aims for the tank's main gun and make the tank useless, and if they fire... . tell me what u think about my ideas.



    Go Get Beer
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    (2/26/03 8:31:09 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    M1A1 Abrams offers the best crew protection of the widely used AFV I know of. However, Leclerc's armor composition is still undisclosed AFAIK, so I can't vouch for it to be less effective.
    The very same gun and very similar ammunition as the M1A1 Abrams is used on Leopard 2 and the second version of its turret shows some really interesting characteristics.
    M82's and other anti-material rifles are not as widely spread as one would think. There is actually a better chance of the reactive armor being disposed of with a shot from a grenade laucher, given their numbers.
    DU is a side-effect of the process of enriching uranium for use in nuclear power-plants, I wouldn't call it cheap, though.
    Missile tank destroyers and missile tanks were tried (Soviet Union again) and failed miserably. Currently only T72s and T80s are capable of launching missiles from the barrels of their guns and even those missiles are directed more towards combatting helicopters.
    There could be a problem with directing the detonation of a shaped charge after the missile carrying it hit ground. Besides such a missile would need quite robust electronics to be able to do anything after hitting ground. Attacking tanks from above has proven much more effective and cheaper. Hellfire II uses this method, AFAIK, delivering a tandem warhead just above the tank and detonating.
    There are currently tests, involving an APFSDS round, separating mid-flight into a series of smaller penetrators in order to achieve multiple hits in one point.
    In order to hit a specific point on a tank you'd need a software for identifying that point and a guidance system precise enough to hit it (not within a meter of a designated location). While 'smart' artillery rounds can recognize a tank and fire an APFSDS round at it from above, their precision is still somewhat lacking for hitting a gun mount.

    AznientWisdom
    Member
    Posts: 4
    (2/27/03 1:20:53 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    using the air is great counter for tanks, but sometimes things like high winds and smoke or other things can get in the way for a clear shot and then u would need a scout plane to launch a grenade to mark the tanks with reactive material to let the aircrafts be able to find the tanks.There is also alot of ways to counter air, but i agree with u that air is cheaper and better.Land mines r also pretty good at taking out tanks .

    What if they make a system where they fire a the first canister that has a line that drags a second canister into the air. The first canister can attach to the wanted area in the tank and the second canister can break part into smaller penetrators with each of them having a line attached to the first canister. Each of the small penetrators can start reeling in the line (in order), so that there is time between each rounds that hits the same spot. The penetrators can break away from the line at a certain point where they can't miss and their rockect can kick in and shoot them to exactly the same point one at a time. This way it is cheap and easy to make in theory.What do u think .

    Edited by: AznientWisdom at: 2/27/03 1:21:24 am

    Go Get Beer
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    (2/27/03 4:07:50 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    There are many modern alternatives to land mines (use of which is forbidden by an international treaty). Anti-tank mines like the Adder system, comprising of a conventional anti-tank launcher and a detection/firing system, working in infra-red or with a simple or thermal camera, with laser targeting system, which are capable of detecting a tank, passing by its location and firing the launcher's warhead at a previously selected vehicle (any number of vehicles can pass in front of the launcher before the system becomes active) have proven to be quite effective. They can be placed by any units operating in the front region or behind enemy lines, close to supply lines and/or concentration points of enemy armor units and be activated remotely or automatically, providing a diversion or a real measure to reduce enemy's vehicle basis in the area.
    In your proposition the precision of the shot with first canister is crucial to all the consecutive hits in such a solution and depends on the shooter/guidance system. What would be the method of attachment of the canister? If it would be magnetic, a simple solution, like the paste 'zimmerit' used in WWII by Germans, would be sufficient to make any attack with the weapon ineffective. Any other method is easily countered with reactive armor: The canister hits, attaches itself or not and is blown away when the explosives detonate, dragging all consecutive penetrators with it. The canister would have to be robust enough to withstand the initial impact. That would mean it has to be pretty heavy, considering the velocities needed to propel it 2-3 km towards enemy vehicle (at muzzle velocities of modern tank guns). Its weight and the weight of the cables would count against the weight of the penetrators and the energy they can deliver (unless you propose to outfit each of the penetrator with a shaped charge warhead). Furthermore each of the penetrators would need to carry a winch and a rocket engine, further reducing their mass and material strength and increasing the cost.
    Even if such a system was delivered from a rocket launcher it would be very expensive, heavy, hard to maneuver and carry and its effectiveness would be limited, compared to a simple shoulder launcher - tandem or squash head warhead system.

    I think even our most outlandish ideas were taken under cosideration by the tank designers and anti-tank weapons specialists. They chose the most cost- and training-effective methods, which are capable of disabling any tank which can be met at the battlefield.

    AznientWisdom
    Member
    Posts: 5
    (2/27/03 6:43:20 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    What if the first canister breaks and open a net with small weights to hold down the nets and where the middle of the net hits will be where the penetrators will go. To lower the cost, they could instead of each penetrators attached to the first canister with their own wires, they attach among themselves and only have one wire attached to the first canister. They dont even need rockets anymore because at first they were separted and now they are attached together and dont need rockets to guide the penetrators to the spot. With them together, they can just reel in the main wire and the rest of the penetrators will follow with one hitting after another, they should look like a snake, and even with strong wind they will stay on course. Plus they could make the first canister with the net be able to send thousands of volts of electricity or even EMP to the tank.

    Another way is a missile form, and when fired the top breaks away and it can fire rockets like a chain gun by remote. It would be best to fire by 2 rockets at a time to let the temperture go hot and then let it cool for couple seconds before firing more bursts of rockets to cause the armor to expand and eventually break it, and also it can get rid of reactive armor with the first burst of rockets, and the following bursts can hit beneath the reactive armor. With the launcher like a chain and only one fire system while the other rockets must turn to be fired, then all the rockets will head the same way as the other ones. The main missile can act as the final bang, being that itself can explode too.

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3809
    (2/27/03 9:42:21 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    You can get very fancy, and very clever here....but....

    1 Apache Longbow + 1 Hellfire Missle = 0 Tank.

    AznientWisdom
    Member
    Posts: 6
    (2/27/03 6:15:32 pm)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    u right, but what will happen due to bad weather or dense smoke and the choppers can't find the tanks . Like in iraq, where they burn its oil field and u can't get a clear shot, and u will need a scout plane to fire a special grenade in the area to mark the tanks in area to let the choppers find the tanks . But still i agree with u, air is the way to go cheapest and most effective . i was just letting my imagtion go a little wild before .

    Wouldn't it be cool if they can make a missile that can set the tank on fire and cause the tank to overheat and also melt the tank's wires and ignite the ammo. The ammo of the tank would be like popping popcorn

    Edited by: AznientWisdom at: 2/28/03 1:30:13 am

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3815
    (2/28/03 9:41:57 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    "Wouldn't it be cool if they can make a missile that can set the tank on fire and cause the tank to overheat and also melt the tank's wires and ignite the ammo. The ammo of the tank would be like popping popcorn."

    Well, during WWII and Korea, there was such a weapon. It was called "Napalm".


    AznientWisdom
    Member
    Posts: 8
    (2/28/03 8:11:14 pm)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    but, is it strong enough to heat up a tank's thick armor, does it hit it on the outside, or thrown inside the tank. I dont know too much about napalms , i always thought that napalms were specialize grenades that is used for spreading fire more than exploding in grenade form.What ever u can tell me would be great

    Here is another crazy idea, what about a team of tanks like 2 or 3 will fires specialized missiles that is designed to pierce the armor than exploding. The missile can hit the edge of the top of the tank and the team of tanks can reel in the missile to flip the enemy tank or drag the tank to a static position by the tanks dragging from opposite sides and they will be a sitting duck . Another idea is that since most if not all tank's main gun is longer than the tank itself, and when the US make a Sonic Boom Generator. Since tank's main gun is sticking out, it can make it suspectible to tension and stess, this can either rip off the gun turret altogether, bend the tank's main gun so that they can't fire anymore, flip the tank, or might disable the crew or the tank's equipment in the tank from the shock of the Sonic Boom or at least distract the enemy . What do u think

    rayra
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    (3/1/03 5:38:43 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    Somebody get this kid a job at DARPA or some Think-Tank.

    AznientWisdom, re your concern about smoke and weather obscuring things - go read up about Thermal Imaging and NightVision devices.

    Rich

    AznientWisdom
    Member
    Posts: 9
    (3/1/03 7:49:20 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    thanks , but i'm only 18 and i dont think i have what it takes to join those departments , i have a very wild imagation sometimes .

    i know some stuff about thermal imaging and nighvision devices, but i read it somewhere that in 91 when US invade iraq, that they had to use special planes and fire special marking grenades to find the tanks in the dense smoke when Saddam set fire to its oil fields. Dont the chopper's targeting system mostly laser guided. The fire could block the thermal since it has high temperture itself, and the dense smoke can block nightnvision. They might have even better targeting system, but cost too much and it reserved for missiles like the "bunker busters" which is used to take out vital bunkers and too expensive of a targeting system to use to hit a tank.

    Well, i just got some more crazy ideas, the US could make inflatable tanks that looks like real tanks and attach it with a decoy system that can gerenate heat, able to fool radars, and fool other systems of detection. Attach some small charges to the front and sides to make them look like they are moving, so it does not stick out like a sorethumb that they r not moving. With this idea, the US can plant decoy tank platoon to throw off enemy tactics by making enemy position their troops to a decoy team so the real forces can slip in unaware, can boast numbers than actually is in effect to confuse and scare enemy, so when they shoot the fakes then the US can shoot them back to reduce risks of its own tanks of being destroyed.

    The US could make the armor on tank much weaker to reduce weight, but makes a 2-piece heavy shield like the M1A1 Abram's armor of deplated uraium. The two piece shield can open a small hole in the middle to let the main gun go through it and it is a two piece because it is so the gun can move around and fire at the same time as the shield protects. The shield should be able to turn to the sides or the back of the tank. The Shield can extend when is on the sides because the front and back is shorter than the sides and it need to extend to cover all of the sides, and can have shock absorbers, that attach to the ground so when the shield recive a shot, it can disprute the shock away from the tank since the shield is away from the tank it is suspectible to tension and stress, with shock absorbers then no it should be no prob. The tank is going to need anti-air rocket pads that is movable and exactly the same weight as the shield to counter weight the shield, so when shield is in front then the pads r in the back, the anti-air rockets can help protect the tank from air since the shield does not protect the top. It should be lighter to make a tank with a heavy shield that can move around then a tank has heavy armor all around the tank. This way the tank can maybe light enough to transport by air with out making the tank weaker.What do u think

    Edited by: AznientWisdom at: 3/3/03 7:30:28 am

    Go Get Beer
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    (3/3/03 7:45:48 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    No tank should be wider than 3.15 meters. It is for a very practical reason - anything more and it won't fit on railroad and road platforms, into landing ships and planes. It would be hard to implement your idea without breaking this rule. Besides a well-camouflaged strike team could destroy such a tank from behind or side of such a shield with an inferior weapon.

    AznientWisdom
    Member
    Posts: 12
    (3/3/03 10:05:42 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    u misunderstood what i mean, the shield is as long as the front and back and only extend when it is covering the sides, so if the tanks originally fit then the shields wouldn't affect it. Even if the shields affect it, they could make the shields removable, and reattach when the tanks arrive to the field. By having the tank lighter without the tank being weaker, this way they can transport tanks by air, isn't that better than railroad in some situations.

    As for the camouflaged strike, ur tanks work in teams, so the tanks in the front will put their shields in the front, back in the back, sides to the sides. The 1st idea i suggested can also counter a camo strike, they can deploy decoys in the outer layer of front,back, and sides so the real tanks can be in the middle. If they try to hit the tanks, mostly likely they will try and hit the closest ones to them, and that is the decoys, with them attacking ur decoys the real tanks can be alerted, decoys can be equipped with charges to dodge quickly from shots.Tanks like the M1 Abrams have very advance detection system,the US can deploy Global Hawks, that is specialized in detection and targeting which can most likely to detect the enemy so they can't sneak up on the tank division.The Global Hawk can also paint targets for air strike, gather intel ahead of the tank division, if the enemy use smoke or other distraction then the global hawk will be the tanks eyes.

    To further improve the formation, they could add some M109 A6 "Paladin" sp mobile artillery to provide extreme long range support with the global hawk's help of finding the enemy.The tanks can protect sp mobile artillery from middle to close range combat while sp mobile artillery can provide extreme range support, and since the artillery is mobile it can move with the tanks. Since the tanks need anti-air missile pads to counter the weight of the shields that would some give some protection against air. They could add some multiply rocket launcher system vehicle to counter air, while the tanks and mobile artillery protect them, since the multiply rocket system vehicle is mobile too, they all can move at the same time. With air, the global hawk can detect the enemy aircraft before they approach to ask for air relief,the tanks can use its missiles, while the multiply launcher can also help counter air, they just have to sit tight waiting for air relief and fire back at the same time, while the enemy aircraft will most likely to attack the closest tanks, and since the outer layer is decoys and they got charges then they will waste their time and ammo on them.In theroy it sounds pretty good , but i dont know, what do u guys think

    Sigtrygg
    Member
    Posts: 36
    (3/3/03 4:47:24 pm)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    Hi AznientWisdom!

    You have a lot ideas, but I think they are really a little out of this World... Sorry!
    During my Time in the Army (I was member of an engineer-battalion) we were not only building bridges, we also were trained as "tank-destruction-teams".
    You´re ideas sound pretty cool, but think of you're "bunch" of half-armored-tanks in a city... in the woods... during road travel, when the Tank-crew does not even know that someone with a Milan or Bazooka lies behind some Trees...
    We had the chance to "fight" against American troops during a "REFORGER"-(return of forces to Germany)-maneuver.
    We were the enemy...
    I have to say that even when the good ol`boys from America knocked out all the teams we had, we also got 6 of 10 Tanks...
    There is almost never a Tank without infantry, and if there IS a Tank in a street-battle in a town or city, without infantry thats guarding the sides, the roofs or where'er the enemy can hide.... the Tank will be lost.
    Fast is good... but then the Tank gets weaker
    Heavy armored is also good...but slow, and easy to hit, or sinking in the ground on soft or wet ground...
    You surely can construct a Tank that is almost unwoundable from one side, but think of the French Maginot-Line.... The Germans just went around it.
    And in Battle, even or especially in modern ones, there is no "Front" or something.
    Enemy is where you not are... all around.
    Ideas are good, but until you don`t come up with a shield like the one on the USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D) ... its all just dreams.

    Greets from Germany

    Michael


    AznientWisdom
    Member
    Posts: 13
    (3/3/03 10:52:08 pm)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    Thanks for the info, cool u were in the army before, can u give me some pointers on some more ideas i got .i have put mobile infantry with RPG or other missile projectile firing at the tanks in mind. I didn't put it in my last post because it would be too long for people to read.Yeah u right sometimes my imagation does go off a bit.

    With my idea they could have infantry with it and with the shields, it can provide even better protection for the troops to hide in.I thought of putting snipers in the tank to take out moible infantry with missile projectiles, dont tanks like M1 Abrams have thermal senors so they can detect a missile projectile attack, but the problem is that they cant dodge the shot no matter how light the tank is. They could make a reactive grenade where they could mount it on the front,back,and sides so the grenade is fired automatically when detect a flying projectile's heat, the grenade can break apart into a bunch of reactive materials so that when the projectile hits it, it can ignite the projectiles. They could also make grenade react when a heat projetile is launched, and the grenade can break apart to have a net with counter weights on the ends to when the net engulf the heat projectile, it will drag the projectile downward or at least disprute it to miss.As for demo teams, as "Go Get Beer" said about a paste "zimmerit" can make the surface unable to stick things on it and bombs wouldn't be an option then .

    When i mean a weaker armor , i mean compared to the M1 Abrams, the only thing that can actually destroy the tank would be another tank's main gun and missiles in one hit.Another idea is to make their main armor in sections, so when a heat projectile comes close enough, they could eject their main armor section in ratio to the projectile's path. They would eject the armor sections to the point where the main armor sections can't miss the projectile and ignite the projectile far enough not to damage the tank except for minor shockwaves if the sniper fail to snipe the infantry from firing its projectile, the reactive grenade and net grenades fail to stop them, then u can deploy the armor sections. It is like reactive armor but it doesn't need a pressure system to react on impact, but instead it is remote control. And then they could keep some spare armor sections in the tank, and some explodives to replace loss armor. There is the global hawk that is design for detection and targeting, so they can call for an air stike to clear the path if possible, they could go ahead and scout for enemy infantry that would threaten the tanks and sent the intel back to warn them(this is an actual plane in US military right now ). They could also deploy an AC-130 Spectre plane that can fire heavy machine guns who is design for close combat by circling around the target, it can also have room for 8 personels which could be snipers to take out possible threats for the tank division coming or the AC-130 Spectre itself. The 8 personel can also be close-quarter combants and demo teams to take out vital points of the enemy(This is also a real item in US miltary right now ) Dont forget we could sent in M109 A6 "Paladin" sp mobile artillery(also real item in US military) that can move with the tanks and fire long range to clear paths with the global hawk intel, so when the global hawk find the enemy infanty hiding and blow them up with the Paladins at extreme range .

    got a question, could they actually make decoy tanks to my description? This all only sounds good in theory, i dont know, what u guys think .

    Go Get Beer
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    (3/4/03 5:06:33 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    Nobody sticks anything on a tank anymore to destroy it. That's why you won't see zimmerit-type paste on a tank except in a museum perhaps.
    The idea of an infantry troop riding a tank is not new. Both Russians and Germans had specialized troops for that during WWII. The problem is that a large slow target, detectable by sound alone from more than half a kilometer tends to draw fire. As soon as anything designed to hit a tank finds its mark all the riders are dead, even if the report from their ride's gun doesn't stun them on the first shot. Infantry's strength are tanks' weaknesses: maneuverability, and stealth.
    If you put another crewman inside the tank, you need a bigger tank. You must not only fit a seat, but also life-support for the new guy. Besides every time you get under the armor you limit your visibility, another strength of the infantry. How would you imagine him using his weapon? Through a ball mount (limited range of movement, needs separate viewing equipment to increase visibility), remote controlled (draws electricity) or through slits in armor (do I have to comment?)? The defensive means you'd use the sniper for (close range anti-infantry capabilities) are supposed to be covered by the MGs and grenade launchers mounted on the tank.
    M1 Abrams has a thermal sight. It is hidden in an armored box on top of the turret, which is opened only for final sighting of the main gun in low visibility conditions. It is pretty bulky (the sighting aperture is about the size of an A4 paper sheet - 210 x 297 mm) and very vulnerable to sniper fire. Leclerc has its thermal sight on a rotating mount and it doubles as a remote-controlled MG mount. None of the thermal sights I have heard of is used to detect missile launches. Laser sensors are used to detect sighting equipment (range finders) targeting the tank. The only countermeasures undertaken by the crew then can be launching a hot smoke screen in the direction the laser came from. The tank is too large and too slow to dodge the missile. The missile can't be destroyed by manually controlled equipment. The only way to stop it between launch and hit would be the Russian automatic radar-MG turret (if it worked and was economically sound to employ) or active armor (the same as reactive armor only working in concert with a radar and detonating before a projectile hits the tank).
    Your mobile shield idea sounds complicated. And complicated means expensive, hard to maintain, easy to damage.
    Modern tanks will not be destroyed by the first hit, except most unfortunate circumstances. That's the idea behind all the fancy armor layering, shaping, reactive armor, modern munition magazines, fuel tanks and so on. It would be incapacitated and most probably wouldn't be able to continue fighting, but the crew should be able to get out of it alive, switch tanks or repair theirs and re-enter combat at a later date.
    Most future tanks designs I have seen do employ an aerial drone in order to detect the enemy at longer ranges and more effectively than it's possible with current sighting equipment or even delivering short range anti-tank missiles.
    Every decoy I can think of will be different from a real tank. You'd need either a control crewman inside one of the other vehicles to control its movement or a really good AI, patterning its path on the rest of the platoon. The decoy would be lighter, most probably composed of different materials. While it could work on long ranges, I wouldn't count on it in close quarters.
    You must remember that every army has an economical side to it. It is impractical to outfit every tank company with AC-130 Spectre. If you want to put the same amount of decoys as real tanks in the company it would mean twice as many vehicles to service by the mechanics, more fuel spent (imagine the logistics of bringing extra 50% of fuel to the site of battle), extra communications/control equipment (which in turn means more radio noise generated by the company – all the easier to detect its movements), even if it means half the losses (I doubt the decoys would be that effective).

    AznientWisdom
    Member
    Posts: 14
    (3/4/03 9:04:03 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    Go Get Beer, u make some exellent points , that is where my down fall of my ideas is , too expensive even if is made possible . thanks for straighting some things out for me like about the laser senors can detect missile launch, not thermal sight .

    This is fun, we can give ideas and discuss it. Anyone want a crack at . While in the meantime, i got somemore ideas u can give ur opinions :::cough::: bashing :::cough::: J/K, i love to see what u people have to say, this way i can improve my ideas. Maybe, with laser senors that u menation that detect targeting devices, we could make a emp grenades that can knock out targeting devices when the laser senors find the a target approaching. What if they make a interactive armor of screens like a tv all around the tank, but is on top of the tank's main armor. The screen would be like to program to blend in the natural environment, have u been to a place where the screen is as big as the entire room, and looked so realistic, kind of like that but not as big.If they can also make the sound as little as possible when they fire main gun would help, and also anti-shock stablizers so the tank dont suddenly move and that would wreck the cloaking. The secondary weapons would have to be more conceled too.

    They could make concussive rounds for the tanks where they could be design to sent shockwaves than to explode. This way with a tank hallow inside, it would hurt even more make the tank more suspectible to shockwave, this could disable the enemy tank crew. They could also develop rounds that is used mostly to create area of jelly-like material that can jam the hole of the main gun or even the tread from working since these parts dont work if u even jam one part.For defensive, if someway they could detect a cannon shot of a tank's main gun and missiles fired, then the could make a grenade that fires a expandable material that can engulf the shell or missile, then the material that can expand with the explsion, to contain the blast from escaping. What about a specialized tank that house and mantains a small fast flying drone that can drop charges or use high veocity rockets on the enemy tanks, this way the drone can to the sides and fire high veocity rockets at the tread or dropping charges on the top of the tank which is usually weaker than other parts of the tank, right? .

    They could have specialized tanks that houses long range remote control drone vehicles that is packed with explosives and drive them to the tank's treads. They could also make another specialized tank that houses and maintain a drone chopper that is eqiupped hatch charges that is designed to blow open hatchies,grenades that is designed to destroy equipment(i know what it is called, but dont know how to spell it ) and smoke grenades. They blow open the hatch and drops smoke grenades, and since the tank is conceled they have to evcaute or choke to death, then drop some of those grenades that destroys equipment. To make the tank more evasive, u know when the tank fires its main gun, the recoil can make the tank move backwards, what if they could make a system for the tank like the car that has to put in neutral so u can push it. The same concept, also the tank can be equipped with small charges or boosters on the front, how it works is that when that if they can detect a shell or missile coming then the tank automatically switch to neutral and fires main gun(if loaded) so that the tank moves backward from recoil and at the same time the tank's charges or boosters kicks in and move the tank backwards even more with the tread in neutral and the recoil force of the main gun plus the force of the charges or boosters can move it further back and fast at the same time . Of course they would need a system to let the tank know when to turn to neutrall, fire main gun, and fire its charges or boosters at the right time to evade the shell or missile.

    Here is my fave idea , if they could they can develop a chemical that can eat away the ground, or a chemical when mixed with the ground will either make a big hole or turn it like quicksaand so the tank is either stuck in a hole or sinking . Well what do u guys think about it

    Go Get Beer
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 96
    (3/4/03 9:48:44 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    (...)What if they make a interactive armor of screens like a tv all around the tank, but is on top of the tank's main armor. (...)
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    That's actually a very nice way to do it, but wrong. Put a camera in your garden, put your TV on the patio, so the camera shows what is in your LOS while looking at the TV, behind the set. Connect it all and turn it on. While it's running walk a few paces in front of your tv. See? The tv's POV is where the camera is, while yours constantly changes. If we have the technology to account for that, visual stealth systems, here we come. Until then we can fool anyone we know the exact position of (and it's way cheaper to send a few rounds his way).


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    (...)If they can also make the sound as little as possible when they fire main gun would help (...)
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    They are working on it.
    Silencer for 155 mm howitzer at Meppen, in Germany I'm sure you can scale it down a bit for the 120 mm.


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    (...)The secondary weapons would have to be more conceled too. (...)
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    The more you conceal something, the smaller it must be and the less freedom of movement you leave.


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    (...)They could make concussive rounds for the tanks where they could be design to sent shockwaves than to explode. (...)
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    Already there. British use something they call HESH rounds for their rifled main guns. The round is plastic explosive in a soft case. It is designed to flatten against armor and then detonate, ripping the internal layer of armor and sending its fragments through the interior compartments, shredding crew and equipment alike. It is also thought to be less prone to ricochets.


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    (...)They could also develop rounds that is used mostly to create area of jelly-like material that can jam the hole of the main gun or even the tread from working since these parts dont work if u even jam one part. (...)
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    This is actually quite a nice idea. unfortunately the muzzle of a tank gun is very difficult to hit, even with area-covering attacks. Imagine hitting something 12 cm in diameter from 3 kilometers. It's like hitting a fly from 300 yards. Besides you'd first need to develop a material strong enough to stop a 120mm cannon round or the engine, capable of moving a 40-50 ton tank at 40 kmh in rough terrain, and a method of delivering it. To quote one of my favorite actors: 'Not bloody likely'.


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    (...) if someway they could detect a cannon shot of a tank's main gun (...)
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    That's the general idea behind active armor. No functioning prototype to date, AFAIK.


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    (...) tank that house and mantains a small fast flying drone (...)
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    The drones mentioned in my previous post are meant to be based on every tank. They plan to equip them (depending on the project) just with detection equipment, detection/sighting equipment, detection/targeting equipment & weapons. Of course the more you want to fit on this flying object, the bigger, heavier and more complex it gets. For my views on 'complex', see previous post.


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    (...) They could have specialized tanks that houses long range remote control drone vehicles that is packed with explosives and drive them to the tank's treads. (...)
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    Search for 'Goliath' demolition drones. It was a German invention for crossing the Maginot line. They used it during the Warsaw Uprising, to devastating effect. Drawbacks: big, slow, short range.


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    (...)They blow open the hatch and drops smoke grenades (...)
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    Such a drone would have to remain stationary above it's target while it dropped all those explosives. Either you put some armor on it or some support personnel, another tank or this tank's crew will shoot it down. If you put armor on it, why don't you put a Hellfire or two? See the above idea.


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    (...)the recoil can make the tank move backwards (...)
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    What use would the aiming of such a shot be? You wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn, ever. Besides what if the turret is turned or the tank is moving when you shoot? You'd need to carry quite a few spare gearboxes. Terrain wouldn't always allow for such a movement. I think it's best to trust the drivers and commanders of tanks to decide what the best evasive tactic is case-by-case and concentrate on giving them the best speed, acceleration and maneuverability the construction allows.


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    (...) develop a chemical that can eat away the ground (...)
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    Universal Solvent. A nice idea. When you have a few drops, patent it and don't let anyone steal it from you. Your grand-grand-children would be able to live grandiously if you saved just the first month's earnings from that invention.

    Sorry for ripping some sentences out of context, but quoting the full paragraphs would be a bit much and I wanted you to know what part of your post I was referring to

    AznientWisdom
    Member
    Posts: 16
    (3/5/03 1:59:48 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    This is even better , this way we could save spaces.

    Here is somemore whacky ideas , they could make a drilling unit that can drill under the ground and resurface to hit the enemy tank's tread breaking it. They could make missiles that that can attach to the enemy tank and create extreme temperture like that one movie"Lost in Space" and those weird spiders-like things started to burn the hull so much it could break the equipment on the inside the tank or at least weaken the armor dramatically for another tank to destroy even with a weaker cannon. They could make liquid-nitrogten rounds that could make the tank's armor turn to ice, so that a following cannon round and missile can pierce it.

    They could fire a really big cloth over the entire tank with some weights on it to keep it down, that is made partly or entirely of lead in a way its light enough.Lead is one of if the best material that has the ability for containment. This way the enemy tank can't send or receive transmission, cant use its senors or targeting devices to aim or so they cant detect enemies(actually i think this sounds promising ).They could make auto-sniper rifle where it responds to heat and movement of the enemy infantry so they could snipe infantry at the same time without people using it.

    They could make missiles that aim for specific points on the ground and the missiles break apart into depth charges that attach to the ground in front of the enemy tanks and detonate to cause a minor earthquake when they approach so that the ground break apart the ground making the tank's tread unble to move and the tanks is a sitting duck even damage the tank's equipment and crew. If they could make a armor specifically to protect against heat exposure then, they could make stabilizers on all sides of the tank, so when a missile or a shell is coming then it either set up its stabilizers opposite side of the incoming projectile and waits for the missile or shell to hit the armor and and divide the shock among the pressure plates or go against the incoming projectile with the power of the ground and repel the incoming projectile.They could make a grenade that sticks to the part where the computer located and inside the grenade is loaded with a virus that can be downloaded into the tank and make their tank's computer crash(dont know about this one, but sure sounds cool )So what do u guys think

    Go Get Beer
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 97
    (3/5/03 4:39:51 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    Quote:
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    (...) a drilling unit that can drill under the ground (...)
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    And it would navigate by what? A gut feeling? Pressure on the ground? Identify enemy and your tanks by smell? Go around obstacles it can't drill through? And it would be hard enough not to be crushed when directly under a tank's track. My favorite actor quote time again, I fear.

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    (...)attach to the enemy tank and create extreme temperture(...)
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    Attach by what? Generate temperature how? And why won't it be taken, shaken or shot off? Wouldn't it be easier to burn through the armor with a HEAT warhead anyway?

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    (...) a really big cloth over the entire tank (...)
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    Lead is also one of the most malleable materials around. A tank would most probably just tear through.

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    (...) auto-sniper rifle (...)
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    Remote-controlled sniper rifles are already in use and are way more reliable than any automatic system. If you wanted to use a computer, you'd have to provide it and everyone of your soldiers with an IFF of some kind to identify your forces and be sure that no civilians are in the area.

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    (...) depth charges that attach to the ground in front of the enemy tanks (...)
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    Wouldn't those be land-mines? We can't use those. Those are forbidden.

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    (...) set up its stabilizers (...)
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    The suspension of the tank actually helps absorb some of the kinetic energy of the impact. If the tank would be completely immobile (braced, or 'stabilized') the energy delivered to the armor would be actually greater. There is very little chance that a hit will flip a tank, and that's the only thing your 'stabilizers' would protect against.

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    (...) a virus that can be downloaded (...)
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    It would be much easier to upload a virus into the tank's software if it would be hidden in a transmission the tank is supposed to receive (tactical data or a datastream from recon (drones or such)). How else would you want the computer to accept your data? Osmosis? Induction? You'd first need to break the code those transmissions are using, establish the frequency the tank communicates with its counterparts and then insert a program, written for their operating system into the data. Not an easy thing to do, especially that you'd need to make it mission-specific (all codes, frequencies and even tank types can change between missions) and broadcast it in a specific time-frame in order for it to even be accepted. No ID4 solutions here.

    rayra
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 513
    (3/5/03 5:31:32 pm)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    AznientWisdom, you ought to go put some of this fantasizing energy into actually learning about past and current weapons systems, and reading about ongoing weapons development programs. And learn about physics, and materials science, and metallurgy, and quite a bit about armored combat.

    THEN once you have a better grasp of the realities of weapons technology and its use, turn your Fantasy Generator back on and put it to more focused productive use.

    Rich

    AznientWisdom
    Member
    Posts: 17
    (3/6/03 6:11:31 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    thanks for the tips go get beer , u r right rayra, im making a fool of myself , i going to stop posting unless i have something productive to say .u know any websites where i can learn about this stuff like past and current weapons system, weapons development, armored combat execpt the stuff about physics,science, metallurgy which i will learn from reading books

    Edited by: AznientWisdom at: 3/6/03 6:13:50 am

    Go Get Beer
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 98
    (3/6/03 6:30:13 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Don't worry AznientWisdom, I've made a fool out of myself here on more than one occasion too. Besides I'm an astrological Leo, which means I do like to flaunt my attributes from time to time (even if it's nothing to brag about )
    Unfortunately I can't provide you with links, as most of my knowledge comes from books, my own analysis and extrapolation of data presented in written materials (and the authors are mainly Polish, so the titles and names won't be of much use to you either). Happy hunting though, I'm looking forward to more discussions with you in the future (when your ideas come to realization, maybe).

    AznientWisdom
    Member
    Posts: 18
    (3/6/03 8:10:26 am)
    Reply Re: Is there a such thing as shock armor on a tank
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    thanks go get beer ,

    i'm going back to my day job of the silent productive reader , where i learn mostly and post if i have something i know for sure and leave the inventing gig to someone else (for now ).i look forward toward future disscussion with u too , after i do some intensive research (i love this stuff, but use to be too lazy to research ,until now ).

    Edited by: AznientWisdom at: 3/6/03 8:12:19 am
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2003
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