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Iver Johnsons Arms & Cycle Works gun age

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by gunnovice, Sep 24, 2010.

  1. gunnovice

    gunnovice New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
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    11
    I'm visiting relative who has an old Iver Johnsons Arms & Cycle Works pistol. It has black grip with owls face, 5 cylinder, either 32 or 38 cal. The stamp on the trigger guard is 11 69. Any idea of age and calliber. It is well-worn. Relative also has an American Gun Co New York 12-ga shotgun, single barrel with hammer, serial #3616 71, also well worn. Would be interested in age also. Any help greatly appreciated
  2. b.goforth

    b.goforth New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2003
    Messages:
    3,174
    Location:
    houston, tx
    INFORMATION NEEDED TO IDENTIFY
    IVER JOHNSON’S ARMS & CYCLE WORKS SAFETY AUTOMATIC REVOLVERS

    1. EXACT MARKINGS;
    A. TOP OF BARREL
    B. LEFT SIDE OF BARREL
    C. BOTTOM OF BUTT STRAP

    2. SERIAL NUMBER FOUND ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE GRIP STRAP UNDER THE GRIP PANEL (MAIN LOCATION SINCE 1896). THE SERIAL NUMBER FOUND ON THE BOTTOM OF THE TRIGGER GUARD WAS ONLY USED AFTER 1904 AND SINCE TRIGGER GUARDS ARE INTERCHANGABLE AND THIS LOCATION DOES NOT HAVE THE LETTER CODE IT CANNOT BE USED FOR PROPER IDENTIFICATION

    3. BARREL LENGTH;
    A. STANDARD BARREL LENGTH FOR LARGE FRAME IS 3 ¼ INCHES
    B. STANDARD BARREL LENGTH FOR SMALL FRAME IS 3 INCHES

    4. HAMMER SPRING
    A. FIRST AND SECOND MODELS SINGLE FLAT LEAF
    BLACK POWDER MODELS
    B. THIRD MODEL CAPTIVE COIL
    SMOKELESS POWDER

    CALIBERS:
    A. FIRST MODEL LARGE FRAME HAMMER OR HAMMERLESS 38 S&W (5)
    FIRST MODEL SMALL FRAME HAMMER 22 RIMFIRE, 32 S&W (5)
    FIRST MODEL SMALL FRAME HAMMERLESS 32 S&W (5)
    B. SECOND MODEL LARGE FRAME HAMMER OR HAMMERLESS 38 S&W (5)
    SECOND MODEL SMALL FRAME HAMMER 22 RIMFIRE (7), 32 S&W (5)
    SECOND MODEL SMALL FRAME HAMMERLESS 32 S&W (5)
    C. THIRD MODEL LARGE FRAME HAMMER OR HAMMERLESS
    32 S&W LONG (6) AND 38 S&W (5)
    THIRD MODEL SMALL FRAME HAMMER OR HAMMERLESS
    22 RIMFIRE (7), 32 S&W (5)
    bill
  3. RJay

    RJay Well-Known Member

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    4,421
    Location:
    Goodyear, Arizona
    American Gun Company was a House brand of H&D Folsom, a very large sporting good supplier who also owned Crescent Arms Co. If there are no Belgium proof marks ( H&D also imported large quantities of Belgium firearms ) then it was made by Crescent Arms Co.. Serial numbers are useless on these old Trade name guns because there are no records. Age? Don't know, not enough information, probably 1920 to late 1930's. A wag but best that can be done with these old single barrels, Value is very low, less than a hundred dollars.:)
  4. gunnovice

    gunnovice New Member

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    Questions answered in order below....thanks for help!
    1a *Iver Johnsons Arms & Cycle Works*
    *Fitchburg, Mass. U.S.A.*
    1b No apparent markings on barrel side, but lots of wear.
    1c Pats.Pend., strap is well worn & something above Pats.Pend is worn off
    2 G1169
    3 3"
    4 captive coil

    It is definitely not a .22. I believe it is .32, but am not familar with pistols. There is a hammer and it is 5 cylinder. Not sure what constitutes larger/small hammer, but this is small in my opinion.

    Hope this helps!
  5. gunnovice

    gunnovice New Member

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    Sep 24, 2010
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    Thanks RJay....That mirrors my research. I knew it had minimal value. The barrel has been sawed off as it is only 24".
  6. gunnovice

    gunnovice New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Messages:
    11
    Questions answered in order below....thanks for help!
    1a *Iver Johnsons Arms & Cycle Works*
    *Fitchburg, Mass. U.S.A.*
    1b No apparent markings on barrel side, but lots of wear.
    1c Pats.Pend., strap is well worn & something above appears to be Pat. No. ????
    2 G1169
    3 3"
    4 captive coil

    It is definitely not a .22. I believe it is .32, but am not familar with pistols. There is a hammer and it is 5 cylinder. Not sure what constitutes larger/small hammer, but this is small in my opinion.

    Hope this helps!
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2010
  7. b.goforth

    b.goforth New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2003
    Messages:
    3,174
    Location:
    houston, tx
    this is a iver johnson's safety automatic hammer revolver third model small frame 32 S&W caliber. serial number G1169 was made in 1915, there were 17,100 of this model and caliber made that year.

    THIRD MODEL SAFETY AUTOMATIC HAMMER REVOLVER
    (Smokeless Powder Cartridges)--------------------1909-1941
    LARGE FRAME AND SMALL FRAME VERSIONS USES HAMMER THE HAMMER ACTION: Double top post barrel latch with Hammer the Hammer action. This model redesigned to be strong enough for smokeless powder. All coil springs, hard rubber grip panels with Owls head at top, optional oversize grips of hard rubber or wood were offered. Two frame sizes, four calibers, Standard barrel length: small frame 3 inches, large frame 3 ¼ inches. Calibers: small frame .22 rimfire 7 rounds cylinder capacity, .32 centerfire 5 rounds cylinder capacity, large frame .32 Special centerfire with 6 rounds cylinder capacity, .38 centerfire with 5 rounds cylinder capacity; Weight: small frame .22 rimfire with 3 inch barrel 13 ounces, .32 centerfire with 3 inch barrel 13 ½ ounces, large frame with 3 ¼ inch barrel .32 Special 19 ounces, .38 centerfire with 3 ¼ inch barrel 18 ¼ inches; Height: small frame 3 ¾ inches, large frame 3 7/8 inches; Frame length: small frame 4 3/16 inches, large frame 5 inches; Overall length: small frame with 3 inch barrel 6 3/8 inches, large frame with 3 ¼ inch barrel 7 3/8 inches. Main serial number location on left side of grip frame grips must be removed to see. The Third Model features a double top post barrel latch, coil hammer spring and four cross pins in the lower frame.
    VALUE: 100%=$250 60%=$115

    bill
  8. gunnovice

    gunnovice New Member

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    Sep 24, 2010
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    Thanks Bill. That was extremely helpful. I wish that kind of historical data was available for other gun brands.
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