J P Sauer & Sohn over under shotgun-rifle

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by Lee H, Jun 5, 2009.

  1. Lee H

    Lee H New Member

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    New Prague ,MN
    I am seeking info on a gun that is in an estate. It was mfgd. by J P Sauer & Sohn of Suhl, Germany. It is an over and under, single barrells, shot gun- rifle.Think shotgun ga. is 16. Rifle 7 or 8 MM? Ser.# 279444. Number under forearm is #9444. Has flip site for 100 or 200 meter range. Fancy engraving of letter "S" on under side. A lot of other engraving. On the right side the words KRUPP-LAUFSTAHL. Swivels are installed for a strap. Also has the following stamped of the top of the barrell 8 X 57.J. R. Two triggers.
    The gun was brought back from Europe at the end of WWII.
    Any info anyone could give me would be appreciated.



    The gun is in very good condition and probably never fired by the owner.
  2. Contenderizer

    Contenderizer New Member

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    Welcome to TFF, Lee.

    Combination guns such as you describe can be difficult to value and should not be attempted over the Internet. It will require a hands-on appraisal by someone who specializes in older German guns. Having said that, here is a little info to get you started:

    J P Sauer & Son is the oldest firearms manufacturer in Germany. The company was founded in 1751 in Suhl, which historically has been the heart of German gun manufacturing. J P Sauer is highly regarded for quality products and has manufactured rifles, shotguns and handguns. Their older guns are highly collectible. Sauer is still in business, though I believe they have merged with Sigarms (www.sigarms.com). Contacting the company is a realistic means of beginning your research on this piece.

    Based upon your description, the top barrel is the rifled barrel and is chambered in 8X57mm. Which 8X57mm will have to be determined, however. Originally the 8X57 was a military cartridge (the 8mm Mauser), but following WWII it became more of a sporting cartridge. One version is the 8X57mmJS Mauser. Another is the 8X57RmmJS Mauser which is a rimmed version for use in single-shot guns and combination guns such as the one you describe. To further complicate matters the 8mm bullet actually came in two sizes, 0.323 and 0.318. Guns which use the rimmed 0.318 bullet are sometimes (but not always) marked 8X57JR. I suspect the gun you describe will chamber the 8X57 Rimmed cartridge with the 0.318 bullet, BUT that will have to be confirmed by a qualified gunsmith.

    KRUPP was a famous steel and cannon manufacturer in Essen, Germany who made many barrels for various German companies. LAUFSTAHL describes the type of steel. Krupp is still in business.

    It is quite common for German gun manufacturers to only use the last 4 digits of the serial number on the forend.

    If you take photos of the gun I may be able to tell you more. Take close-ups of all the markings. Break the gun down to find hidden markings (under the forend, etc).

    Combination guns can sell for several thousand dollars up to the mid-5 digits, so researching this gun will be worth the effort on your part. Besides, I sure would like to see some photos.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2009
  3. mrstudy

    mrstudy New Member

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    I to have one of these guns, but the one I have is a side by side shot gun with a rifle below. My grandma gave it to me when I was a boy, but all she could tell me about it was that her father brought it with him when he came over from Poland. It have been in my gun vault for the by 25 years.

    I've attached some pictures.

    Base on your reply to Lee it sound like these guns are somewhat unique and I should hang on to it.

    Regards,

    Rob

    Attached Files:

  4. Contenderizer

    Contenderizer New Member

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    Welcome to TFF mrstudy,

    Actually, Lee's gun is a combination gun, that is, a firearm with two barrels - one being a rifled barrel, the other a shotgun. Yours is commonly referred to as a drilling, which comes from the German word "drei" which means three. Drillings a generally worth more than combination guns, but that can vary by manufacturer, age and scarcity.

    Since you are new to the forum I choose not to open the file you attached for security reasons. Besides, I still have an old dial-up system. I suggest you upload photos for everyone to see. To do so:

    1. Click "Go Advanced" below
    2. Click "Manage Attachments" at the bottom of the page that opens
    3. Click "Browse" to find the photos on your hard drive.

    I wish I had a Grandpa like yours, and thanks for sharing your gun with the rest of us.
  5. mrstudy

    mrstudy New Member

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    Thanks,

    I think the files are attached. I hope they provide some more details.

    Rob

    Attached Files:

  6. Contenderizer

    Contenderizer New Member

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    Ron,
    The proof marks "S" under the crown indicate a smooth bore (shotgun), the "U" indicates the proof was approved, and the "W" indicates choked barrel(s). The 16 inside a circle would suggest you have a 16 gauge shotgun, the "Nitro" indicates the gun was proved using smokeless powder.

    Except for the serial number, I can't read any of the markings on the rifled barrel, which is unfortunate, as the date code is likely there. I'll take a guess, though, and suggest this gun was manufactured in the 1920's or early 30's. Try uploading more photos of the markings on the rifle barrel.
  7. CeloVelo

    CeloVelo New Member

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    Hi,

    I just registered for this forum and this is my first post.

    I'm hoping that the members of TFF might be able to help me learn a bit more about a Sauer gun I received from my parents. My father purchased it while in Germany in the early to mid sixties. It is a double barrel (side-by-side) 12 guage shotgun with a 30.06 Springfield rifled bore centered underneath.

    The breach end of the right shotgun barrel (drilling) is engraved with this: SPEZIAL LAUFSTAHL # BOCHUMER VEREIN (There is an intricate symbol where I've entered the "#") I have the serial # as well, if anybody is able to use it to get additional info.

    I'll attach some images. In a couple of the images, there is a lever visible at the bottom of the forend grip. I can't tell what its function is. Anybody know? Any information about this gun would be appreciated!

    Thanks!

    CeloVelo

    Attached Files:

  8. armedandsafe

    armedandsafe Guest

    That lever inletted into the bottom of the forearm is to release the forearm for breakdown. Have the shotgun closed (unloaded) and pull that lever. The forearm should then come off, forward end first. Sometimes, it needs to be coaxed a bit, but don't force it. Then, when you use the top lever at the back to open the shotgun, the barrels will come off the receiver, so make sure you have a good grip on them.

    It is good courtesy to start a new thread rather than to tack onto an existing thread.

    Pops
  9. CeloVelo

    CeloVelo New Member

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    Pops,

    Thank you for your reply. After entering my post, I did some more poking around on the web and found some images of the gun, broken down as you've described, and I realized that the lever must be the release mechanism. I haven't yet tried to actually break it down though, so I'm sure your hints on how to do so will help me out - thanks!

    Regarding your comment on starting a new thread vs. tacking on to an existing thread, I believe this may well be the first on-line forum I've joined, so I don't know my way around any forum protocols.

    The "Reply" button appeared to be the most straight forward way to join a discussion on the particular type of firearm I was inquiring about. What is your criteria for when to "tack on" vs when to start a new thread? Do you base this on how much time has elapsed since the last post?

    Thanks,

    CeloVelo
  10. Alpo

    Alpo Well-Known Member

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    That's, pretty much, my criteria.

    This forum, for example, is "what can you tell me about my gun, and how much is it worth?" So, when I opened this, today, I started trying to figure out answers to the question on the first post. Didn't look at the date. I read the post.

    Then I notice the original post is a year old. Hmmmm. Either he has an answer already, or he don't care anymore.

    Many people will tack a question on to the bottom of an old post. You are, by no means, the first, and you won't be the last. But I, personally, wish they wouldn't.

    Read the old posts - certainly. Do a search on your gun, and read the old posts and see if the info you are looking for is there. But if it's not, then start a new thread, with your own questions.

    Just my thoughts, at four in the morning. :)
  11. Alpo

    Alpo Well-Known Member

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    Oh, and yes, the reply button is the most straightforward way to join in a discussion. Thing is, this particular discussion was over a year ago.
  12. Sauer223

    Sauer223 New Member

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    Mate bloody awesome, do you have any idea what these guns are worth down under, up to and the mid teens..

    I recently purchased a Cape gun 30-06x16G cost me $7K and that is not even a double drilling....

    Realy good to see this sort of stuff in the states, I thought you guys are all semi auto new era???

    Cheers and again bloody awesome.
  13. Sauer223

    Sauer223 New Member

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    Mate bloody awesome, do you have any idea what these guns are worth down under, up to and the mid teens..

    I recently purchased a Cape gun 30-06x16G cost me $7K and that is not even a double drilling....

    Realy good to see this sort of stuff in the states, I thought you guys are all semi auto new era???

    Cheers and again bloody awesome.
  14. mdaher

    mdaher New Member

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    Dear CeloVelo,

    I am also new on this forum, and I joined it after my grandfather gave me some years back a very extremly similar to your rifle if not the same . I recently decided to do some research on it . Mine has the following readings:

    JP Sauer Sohn
    8x57xJRS
    Speczial Laufstahl
    Ruchumer Verein

    were you able to get any informatoin about your rile and how much it is worth it ?
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