Legal ramifications???

Discussion in 'The Ammo & Reloading Forum' started by Crpdeth, Feb 26, 2004.

  1. Crpdeth

    Crpdeth Active Member

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    I didn't want to hijack the other thread, but Plano brought up an interesting subject by mentioning he didn't use hand loads in his personal protection firearm...I've never heard of anything like this before...Does the law frown on handloads for self defense or something? Clue me in here guys.


    ~Crp
  2. Xracer

    Xracer *TFF Admin Staff Mediator*

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    Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet!
    "Does the law frown on handloads for self defense or something? Clue me in here guys."

    There's always the chance that if you shoot some scumball in self defense, you could be sued by him or his family, or possibly even be charged with a crime by some ambitious prosecutor.

    In that case, if you used handloads, you could then be portrayed as some "gun nut" who makes "super-duper killer bullets" to go around shooting innocent people.

    It's a stretch, to be sure....but it has happened.
  3. ACC

    ACC New Member

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    hand loads

    I've been rolloing my own for self defense for 20 years,defended myself with them also,never was brought up in my trial,and if it had,well you load to sammi specs,that's what they have loading manuals for!!!!!
  4. gpostal

    gpostal Former Guest

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    I don’t know if it is just one of those urban legends ,or much truth to it ,but everyone says the jury/prosecuting attorney would look down up on hand loads for a self defense ,but the way I look at it ,if it is a justified shooting it should never make it to the jury or attorney

    I have also heard this debate with shotgun loads ,hunting vs. buck shot ,and it you use a handgun that has had trigger/smith work done to it ,mainly a light trigger ,you can bet your bottom dollar if someone comes in my house and is threatening me or mine ,they WILL be chewing on a nice .45 from my Wilson with a light trigger and all
  5. ACC

    ACC New Member

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    even if it's justified,you WILL be arrested,you WILL be brought before a grand jury,and, if you have a prosecutor that wants to make a name for himself,you WILL be prosecuted. Beleive me!!!! I was there. The cival suit was a nightmare also.cost me $35,000
    back in 1982,and probably a whole lot more to-day.
    C&Rammo

    :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
  6. inplanotx

    inplanotx New Member

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    This argument has gone on for a long time. There was a person, Masood Ayoob who was the premier consultant to many defendants on this issue of handloads vs. factory. Since you have control of your handloads, you can make those nasty rounds even worse by using more powder or what have you. Masood was an expert witness on this. He used to write for several gun magazines until his death recently. Since I find factory rounds have two major advantages, I use them.

    #1) Factory rounds are more likely to go "bang" than a mishandled handload. Now, I have had only one misfire in my 20 or so years of reloading and it was a shotshell that I forgot to add powder to. No harm was done, but if that was for defense. I would have been dead. Never had a factory round not go bang due to a mistake of the manufacturer.

    $2) Manufacturers of ammunition have to go by a SAAMI standard loading reference as far as pressure and other particulars go. A handloader, although cautioned repeatedly about staying inside the specs, has been known to roam, wildly at times. Ask any gun dealer to show you what happens when someone doubles the powder charge by accident or ups the load to "see what happens". There are many blown up guns that I have seen in my years!

    Well, that's my two cents. Ayoob has written many books on the subject, if you are interrested, find them. They are very well written and fact based.
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2004
  7. ACC

    ACC New Member

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    BTW, I am from NH(where massad lives), I've know "MAS" for quite a long time, and just spoke to him Monday,he is alive and well in FLA. Anyway, do you know what it would take for the prosecutor to find out if your "hand loads" were to SAMMI specs. or not. It would not be an issue,if it wasn't brought up, in my trial it was never even mentioned about what manufacturer I used to put the scum bag down!!!!!
    I am not arguing the use of hand loads vs a known mfg.All iam saying is that through my experiance it wasn't an issue!!! and anyone who loads ammo for their own enjoyment and bends the rules,should have their guns blow up!!!!!!!! It's not rocket science
    all you have to do is pay attention,and you won't get any squibs
  8. inplanotx

    inplanotx New Member

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    Well, glad to hear he is alive. I had heard somewhere that he had died. Can't recall where. Anyway, I just will not use handloads in my CCW weapon when carried. I do practise with hanloads though. I'm not arguing, just stating my preferences. In case the prosecutor ever does want to try something like that when and if it becomes my time to defend myself. One less worry!
  9. Marlin

    Marlin *TFF Admin Staff Chief Counselor*

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    At SouthernMoss' side forever!
    If a similar case were to have come before me and the issue arose, I would have sustained any objection by the defense as to any information about the cartridge being germane or of any relevancy

    The question in point would be self-defense and whether or not an act was covered under justifiable homicide rules of law.

    Worth 2¢, maybe?
  10. ACC

    ACC New Member

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    thank you Marlin:D now that I am a manufacturer, it is really a mute point. I'm just trying to set the record straight on this issue is all.
    C&Rammo
  11. Crpdeth

    Crpdeth Active Member

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    Wow, interesting debate indeed...As stated, I've never even considered this as an issue.


    Thanks guys



    ~Crp
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2004
  12. rnshooter

    rnshooter New Member

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    hey guys,
    this is a great post and i have enjoyed reading it thoroughly.

    C&R...i would like to know more about what happened to you. please fill me in to how you had to defend yourself. i am always interested in hearing other accounts of self defense. thanks

    be safe
  13. Crpdeth

    Crpdeth Active Member

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    I was interested as well, just didn't ask...My shotgun trigger was probabally 4lbs of pressure away from ending a mans life several years ago, so I have been very close to having to live through the ordeal myself...I often thank the Lord that the situation disolved in a peacefull manner.



    ~Crp
  14. inplanotx

    inplanotx New Member

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    Okay, maybe I should have added more info to this when I stated that Massad Ayoob (thanks for the correct spelling) wrote that he advocated "not" using reloads in a self defense situation.

    Case in point. I lived in Phoenix, AZ from 1978 to 1989, during which time there was NO CCW permits in that state! Period! You could carry a weapon as long as it was in plain sight or any of the pistol or holster could be seen below or outside your clothing! It had to stand out in plain sight. You could also carry in your vehicle if the weapon was carried on the dashboard or on top of the seat where it could be seen. You could not carry under the seat, nor could you carry in the glove box as this was considered concealed.

    I apologize that you had your problem in a state who's Motto is "Live Free Or Die" and that no CCW is necessary. I did not intend to inference your legal position in any way to what I had read many years before. I also do not know when this happened to you and think that someone defending theirself in a state such as NH, where gun laws are so relaxed, is abominable. However, what I said still stands.

    In the easrly 80's I read an article by Massad Ayoob where he clearly stated that at that time, using reloads was not conducive to going to trial on a self defense charge. This is why I changed from using reloads to FACTORY ONLY! I believe that the reload in question was a .38 special with a 146 grain full wadcutter turned around 180 degrees to insure that the bullet coming at the person was with the base first and opened to maximum dimensions. I still hear of this load today!

    Since you are such a close friend of Mr. Ayoob, and whose opinion I respect highly, maybe you can contact him again and ask if he will respond to this. I have read many of his books and articles and would welcome, based on dated fact, his opinion on the subject! It may not matter today or be germane to a case today, but in the early days, it was. Thanks for your help!

    One more question if you please. Can I have the case number of your trial so we can intelligently look at this situation? This has not occurred here before and most would like to understand the ramifications of using deadly force in a situation. Thanks.
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2004
  15. ACC

    ACC New Member

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    it did not happen in NH, it was in Mass.go figure,if it happened In NH Iwould have not gone to trial,anyway,it was in1982,my cousin and myself were standing in line at the boston gardens waiting for tickets(was a celtic fan at the time).An African american decided he wanted my cousins gold chain that hewas wearing around his neck.that was a big think back then,it was called chain snatchin.He stabbed my cousin in the back,grabbed the chain,I interceded, and he lunged at me with the knife, I grabbed the knife with my hand and at the same time pulled my weapon,and pulled him into me,rocked back on my heels,and shot him4 times at close range.my cousin almost died,the knife hit an artery near his spleen.I was brought up on charges of excessive force,and 2nd degree man slaughter.took 8 stitches in the inside of the hand,and 6 on the outside.I'll have to dig through the old paper work to get the case# for you,and i will talk to "Mas" and tell him what a rucus he started over his statements.maybe I'll get him on TFF:)
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