Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again

Discussion in 'Self Defense Tactics & Weapons' started by 1952Sniper, Nov 1, 2005.

  1. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    Sounds good on paper, but the fact is people have taken a full point blank 12GA load to the boiler room and lived plenty long enough to be a threat. That includes birdshot to buckshot. One instance I know of a young man's heart being dissolved from 3 feet ran 100 feet before laying down.

    Just FYI.

    If ANY shotgun load is going to stop ANYONE within the confines of a house...make sure they are aware of that up front or you might just maybe not see the results you expect. :)
  2. billt

    billt Former Guest

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    In the same exact scenario, assuming the 12 won't get the job done, what then, a self propelled 105 perhaps? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but I've heard these type of claims of which there is no solution as well. Most have little to no bearing. If this "young man" had his "heart dissolved" by a 12 ga. shotgun from 3 feet, then ran another 100, what is the weapon of choice? The whole thing is preposterous from a standpoint of weapon choice. A bit like using compressed air tanks to kill difficult sharks because Roy Schider couldn't pull it off with his Garand in "Jaws". Bill T.
  3. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    I know you're not being sarcastic and I understand what you're saying. I don't think it has any bearing on weapon of choice either.

    I was talking about "ANY 12GA shotshell is going to stop ANYONE within the confines of a house, period". It seems like foolproof logic, but it's a fact that in reality sometimes it's one that doesn't quite work out. It's just not accurate. Putting the period on the end does not make it the final word. A more accurate statement might be "ANY 12GA shotshell is extremely likely to stop most people within the confines of a house, (comma) depending on shot placement, distance and what the target is wearing."

    I'm not going to pick this apart, but I'll elaberate this: upstairs in my house #7 1/2 would do fine, however downstairs it may not. The distance from my den to the living room would make that load kinda puny on a 200 pound man...if he's in heavy winter clothing it might be downright useless. Throwing any shotshell in a 12GA won't work for me. And I refuse to close the distance to 6 feet; I don't care what it can do to a 2x4. I'd be better off with 0 buck or a handgun.

    The "no solution" thing isn't really an option. We all have to have our own solution. Mine may be marginal for your problem etc etc.

    But back to my original point. No matter what you put in a 12Ga, no matter where you hit the bad guy (short of point blank busting his head off like a melon) ...he might just not know he's supposed to instantly stop. Some people just don't expire easy. I mean damn man...there's been a handful of guys that jumped from a C130 going 120mph from 500 feet and their T10C wasn't deployed when they smacked the turf....and they lived. So if there's people walking around that getting hit by the 3rd planet from the sun won't kill, then maybe saying things like "ANY 12 ga. shotshell is going to stop ANYONE within the confines of a house, period" could be preposterous.

    Anyway, it's all good. Do what works for you. 12 GA is not a bad choice. Hope ya never have to tag ANYONE with ANY 12GA shotshell, even a trap load, in your house because it probably will be pretty MESSY.

    P.S. 105mm howitzer or cannon?:D
  4. billt

    billt Former Guest

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    Another thing to factor is "getting caught". No one in their right mind would break into a house for an easy score if they knew they were going to be confronted by an armed home owner. That in itself would make the score not so easy. Taking this one step farther, if confronted most will back down on that premise alone. Going to the next step to play it out even further would be to have the person continue to advance knowing you were armed and about to shoot, be it with a 12 Ga. or a .25 pocket automatic. Most won't. Just the sight of a gun, especially someone racking the slide of a 12, is going to change their mind on the spot. If not, and the person fired, and did not stop the invader, brings him to his last decision. Keep advancing in a wounded state and receive more of the same, or comply. If he chooses to keep advancing, he then deserves to die for being so stupid. Of course things like drugs can alter their "state of mind" and increase said stupidity, but all in all if a homeowner is armed, and knows how to handle his or her firearm, the odds are in there favor regardless of the caliber or type of weapon involved. Bill T.
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2006
  5. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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  6. Red Neck64

    Red Neck64 Former Guest

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    Do any of you boys load Rock Salt ouch?
  7. Crpdeth

    Crpdeth New Member

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    Dimes

    *Disclaimer* This was written for humor only, never load dimes in your shotshells...It will most likely buldge the barrel or worse. :D

    Fish hooks?

    Crpdeth
  8. LIKTOSHOOT

    LIKTOSHOOT Advanced Senior Member

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    .......simply ring the shell-----

    LTS
  9. Crpdeth

    Crpdeth New Member

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    ROTF

    Wonder how many here have done that...Or even heard of it for that matter. :p

    Turn birdshot into a slug with yer EDC...Dont think I'd use it in my good shotties!

    Crpdeth
  10. Nighthawk

    Nighthawk New Member

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    dad said that's how they killed hogs when he was youngster. I'd forgot about ringing shotgun shells.
  11. Red Neck64

    Red Neck64 Former Guest

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    OK,Can you Texas boys tell me what is EDC?
  12. Crpdeth

    Crpdeth New Member

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    Nuh uh


    :D
  13. Red Neck64

    Red Neck64 Former Guest

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    Crpdeth,EDC you posted it.What does Nuh uh stand for ain't in my Yankee Dictionary??
  14. Enzo_Guy

    Enzo_Guy New Member

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    Best idea I've heard for a 5-shot 12-gauge is have the first shot be rubber buckshot, this idea is good because the laws tend to be less strict on the homeowner if he hit the intruder with non-lethal ammo. The laws are also less strict if you hi him with non-lethal first but instead he keeps coming, so then #8 or above is good. The other three should be slugs so in case there were a firefight (the intruder having his owwn gun) and he ran, a slug is a good way to make that running criminal know that you mean business.
  15. billt

    billt Former Guest

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    You make a very valid point, and suggest a very good idea. On the opposite end of things I would add that a homeowner should stay away from these "specialty rounds" like flechettes, and the like simply because they really aren't proven in self defense situations and because an over zealous prosecutor could have a field day in court if you used them instead of conventional ammunition. In using firearms in self defense one must remember there are 2 "battlefields". One in the home at the presence of an intruder, the other in the courtroom settling the aftermath. It's wise to be prepared to win in both venues. Bill T.
  16. Crpdeth

    Crpdeth New Member

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    Nuh uh = Naw!

    Alright, Alright...EDC = Every Day Carry...In this instance meaning a knife.

    Crpdeth
  17. LIKTOSHOOT

    LIKTOSHOOT Advanced Senior Member

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    You shoot to shop a threat when it goes that far, to do otherwise is to cheapen your life and your families!!!!!!

    Rubber bullets....SHAME ON YOU!!


    LTS
  18. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    First off, "rubber buckshot" and "non-lethal munitions" ARE potentially lethal in close quarters. Any lawyer can easily argue, correctly too, that you were using deadly force. If your "non-lethal" shotshell turns out to be lethal what are you going to say? OOPS I didn't think it would do that!!?? One jury will decide how long you will serve for second degree murder, another will decide how much you owe his family dollar-wise. Any explanation you offer the jury will make you look worse. Also if you don't kill them, you can count on at a minimum some pretty nasty trauma and very likely maiming for life...especially if fired in tight quarters. When the prosecution is running the slideshow of giant welps, bruises and disfigured facial features to the civil suit jury you can go ahead and accept paying that s.o.b. the rest of your life. It will get turned around on you 10 different ways so just some advice from a guy who has used the non-lethal munitions in a few places...leave it for riot control where it belongs and use OC pepper spray if you insist on using non-lethal force first.

    Second, if the threat is running away when you shoot him...the jury has every right to decide he was no longer a threat and your deadly force at that point was no longer justified. It may not matter what happened up until they ran. Once they flee then you are no longer in danger of loss of your life. The wording of the law in your local area and state may make what you described second degree murder and by law the jury could have little or no choice in naming you guilty.
  19. rick's red dawg

    rick's red dawg New Member

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    i have seen a man shot with a 12 gauge at about 8 feet with a load of #6s and it was not in the chest but the right front pocket of his levis no it did not body slam him but he did hit the ground with a broken leg and a femorial [spelling] artery that was blown to pieces and if it wouldnt have been for the belt we tied around his leg he would have been dead our home defense guns are 12 gauge with what ever game load i bought usually 71/2s and a 22 magnum with hollow points and one mean black mouth cur dog
  20. flopshot

    flopshot New Member

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    home defense, in my five round tube.
    #6 heavy, #4 heavy, two # 1 buckshot, and one slug.
    in the short barell side by side that's kept handy, #4 heavy game 2 3/4"
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