Llama .38 Super auto pistol

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by jwchessell, Nov 3, 2005.

  1. TexasShooter1

    TexasShooter1 New Member

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    Can you tell me anything about a Llama chrome Model 1911 9mm/.38 auto, serial # 459xxx. I am guessing manufacture date around 1967. Is .38 acp ammo around to purchase these days? Also what about extra mags? Any info. is helpful. Thanks.
  2. AR1911

    AR1911 New Member

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    No need to guess about the date. There is a link a few messages up that will show you how to determine year of manufacture for any Spanish pistol.
  3. Hammerslagger

    Hammerslagger New Member

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    Llama likely went out of business in 2005. Parts can be hard to find for many models. Some of their products looked well made; but such appearances were often deceiving as compared to another Spanish makers like Star and Astra, and were typically well below the quality control and durability performances of major U S makers like Colt, Ruger, and S&W.

    The exact year of manufacture can be found at this link for most Spanish firearms as the date codes were government mandated along with proof marks.

    http://star-firearms.com/firearms/proof.shtml

    If your gun was made in 1967 there will be a M2 stamped on the frame near the proof marks. Around the year 2000 Spanish marking standards seemed to have changed; and the year of production is often obviously included the serial number on any Spanish gun.

    The thread remark on 04/09/12 about "9mm/.38 Auto" raises a potential safety concern for those without a great deal of firearms/ammo expertise. Here in the USA 9mm is usually understood to mean the 9X19 mm cartridge developed for use in the German Luger or Parabellum pistol in 1902 and adopted by the German military in 1908. It is often appended by names like "Luger", "Parabellum", "Para" and "NATO". There are numerous other 9mm cartridges in the European cartridge designation system which states nominal bullet diameter and cartridge case length, sometimes with suffix modifiers.

    The .38 Auto and .38 Super are also nominal 9 mm cartridges, BUT THEY ARE NOT THE SAME CARTRIDGE, AND NEITHER IS THE SAME AS (or interchangeable with) THE 9X19 CARTRIDGE. Your Llama (as described) seems to be marked and designed for the USA .38 Auto cartridge which has the exact same dimensions as the much more powerful and higher pressure .38 Super cartridge! {Nominal 26,000 PSI verses 36,000 PSI} it is usually deemed not safe to shoot .38 Super in a pistol marked for .38 Auto. {.38 Auto is basically an obsolete loading; and .38 Auto ammo is often not easily found and expensive when you find it.}

    The 9x19 cartridge will likely load into your Llama pistol and fire and may even cycle and reload without jamming problems until the pistol likely breaks from using the wrong ammo. IT IS NOT DEEMED A SAFE PRACTICE TO DO SO! The chamber in a .38 Auto or Super pistol is nominal 23 mm long verses 19 mm long for the 9 Luger cartridge. The firing pin is able to reliably strike the primer shooting 9x19 in some loose chambered Spanish 9 X23 mm pistols, only because the extractor hold the cartridge against the breech face.

    Be safe, not sorry.
  4. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    The 9mm Largo is a straight-case cartridge, while the 9mm Luger is tapered. The result is that in some tight 9mm Largo chambers, some 9mm Luger rounds will wedge in and fire OK, others will be held by the extractor. While neither condition is ideal, they are not unsafe and the pistol will not "break" from such firing.

    Jim
  5. TexasShooter1

    TexasShooter1 New Member

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    Thanks for the heads-up; I know it is not a 9x19 and would be sure to NOT shoot Supers out of it. It belonged to my uncle who served at Pearl Harbor on december 7 & later Guadalcanal and other points in the South Pacific theatre. I have a full box of the .38 ACP ammo he had with it but notice, as you said, it is very hard to find more. I may re-do it for sentimental purposes, as the chrome has rust spots on it now, but would like to put some rounds through it one of these days.
  6. Kentuckylad

    Kentuckylad New Member

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    Hello. I am new to the sight and definately not a gun expert, I have many moe questions than I do answers. I have a Llama 38 super that I have owven for 12 years and never paid any attention to it until recently; I have fired 1 round through it. I ran across this sight and thread while trying to find a down loadable owner's manual, started readind and got very interested. I know nothing about the weapon but got it from a guy who is big on guns but cares little for hand guns, it was left to him (along with a Rolex Presidential) from a deceased doctor friend who had an unbelievable collection of all types of guns.

    The markings on the 38 super I have appears to be a little different from the ones I see talked about here and in other forums and I would love some help and/or comments to help me determine what I have. I offer the following data and can post some pictures if that would help:

    1. On the left side of the slide is stamped LLAMA cal.38super, nothing else. LLAMA is in larger print. Nothing is marked as 9mm/.38 super, etc.On the right side of the slide is stamped "GABLONDO Y CIA. VICTORIA (ESPANA)", nothing else.
  7. Kentuckylad

    Kentuckylad New Member

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    I guess I hit some key accidently. anyway:

    2. On the left side of the frame at the top of the trigger guard is 3 stamps, one is the bomb with something inside the other 2 I can not describe but will research. On the right side of the frame is stamped "STOEGER INDUSTRIES" and below that is stamped "S.HACKENSACK,N.J." On the bottom right side of the frame is stamped a 6 digit sn 691***. At the top of the trigger guard on the right side is stamped "C".

    This gun has a vented (2 vents) rib. I suspect the round I fired through it is the only one ever fired, the bluing is perfect, no scratches and no rust. It has the "dummy cord" loop on the left sideof the butt and is stamped "made in spain" on the base of the weapon and the bottom of the mag. Any help identifying the model and any other data will be highly appreciated.

    BTW glad to find you all. I have many guns, little knowledge and I look forward to "picking you brains". Thanks guys, Bill
  8. Kentuckylad

    Kentuckylad New Member

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    Can't seem to get off this thing. As I mentioned earlier the markings on the bottom of the frame inside the trigger guard area. I can identify 2 of the stamps, one is the bomb symbol with the letter "P" inside. one is a shield wiht knight atop and "X" inside. I am un able to clearly identify the other it kind of looks like '1*1 but I dunno. I pulled the grips off and no markings under ther. The grooving on the front side of the butt on mine rune vertical, I see others going horizontal? Hope this helps.
  9. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    For info on the subject does ANYONE have the OFFICIAL pressure standards for the 9mm Largo? I have been searching and read a lot of BS and baloney on the subject but NO official info. The CIP web site gives rifle cartridges but not handgun cartridges.

    The cartridge is now loaded in the U.S. but there are no SAAMI standards and in any case, conformance would be voluntary on the part of the ammo maker.

    (No, I don't want a bunch of "my daddy" stories or rants about how guns will blow up. OFFICIAL data only, please.)

    Jim
  10. sakubas

    sakubas New Member

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  11. sakubas

    sakubas New Member

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    JW: If you want to sell the LLama. I am OK with $300. The email to use in reply is sakubas2@aol.com Or call me on my Cell at 361-215-5354 (Steve)
  12. TheGunClinger

    TheGunClinger Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    jwchessell posted that in 2005.
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