Load data for HSM frustration

Discussion in 'The Ammo & Reloading Forum' started by rocklinskier, Jan 3, 2011.

  1. rocklinskier

    rocklinskier New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2009
    Messages:
    295
    Bought some HSM 125g plated FN to load for plinking with my 357 and for 38spcl for my Pop.

    Frustration mounts, I can't find ANY load data that makes any kind of sense.

    The only info I can find says 'find similar load data to a lead bullet'

    Can't seem to find any 38 Spcl lead 125 loads. Did find jacketed info, but how do you know if the bullet is at all similar. Also, those listed COAL's would put the cannelure completely out of the mouth of the case....so not so similar.

    Tried to contact HSM, the only link I can find is The Hunting Shack. Thinking that maybe HSM stands for Hunting Shack Munitions or some such similar name, I called them. (montana address)

    The guy there says they don't make the bullets. I asked if he could give me any resources for the load info.....he just regurgitated the "use lead data of similar bullet" speech. he recomended going to the powder man. site for data. Did that, guess what. No 125 lead bullet listed for alliant (plan to use bullseye or unique)

    If it's that impossible to get any load data, I'm thinking this will be the one and only box of bullets I buy from this company.
  2. retired grunt

    retired grunt New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    416
    Location:
    Northern NY
  3. rocklinskier

    rocklinskier New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2009
    Messages:
    295
    Yes, I saw that info on their webpage, but what is the similar bullet?

    Speer list no lead bullet
    Lyman list no lead bullet

    Alliant list speers jacketed bullets.

    All of the above have different COAL's for their 155 jacketed....so once again, where does one start? I can't find any 'similar bullet'

    When I talked to The Hunting Shack...they said "absolutely do not use jacketed bullet info" and refered me to Alliants website, which of course only list data for jacketed bullet in that caliper and weight.

    It's like talking to the government
  4. retired grunt

    retired grunt New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    416
    Location:
    Northern NY
    Cast Bullets
    Consult a loading manual and select a comparable lead bullet in weight and style and use that load data for cast bullets.
    If you don’t have access to load data for lead bullets, reduce the load for a similar jacketed bullet by 10%.

    Taken from the page I linked to
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2011
  5. retired grunt

    retired grunt New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    416
    Location:
    Northern NY
  6. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2003
    Messages:
    6,304
    Location:
    Hesperia, CA
    rocklinskier:

    The Lyman Reloading Handbook 49th Edition lists cast bullet loads for 120 grain (close enough!) bullets with Bullseye and Unique for both 38 Special and 357 MAG.

    If you are shooting and reloading for cast bullet regularly you NEED this reloading manual. If you don't have at least three of four reloading manuals then your data base for reloading is seriously impaired.

    As for the Cartridge OAL specs, the web page for the bullet says to use the LEE crimper and explains why and how. Did you miss that? The LEE crimp does not have to fall in a canalure according to the bullet manufacturer.

    If the canalure falls in the wrong place I still try to use it with a regular crimp die as long as the COAL is not shorter than recommended and the ammo fits the gun it is to be used in. If the bullets were intended for 38SPL or 357MAG the cannalure provided should work. If it will not work I'd change brands of bullet or perhaps try the LEE crimp die as they suggested. There are several choices of plated bullet, two of which are Rainier and Berrys Bullets.

    LDBennett
  7. rocklinskier

    rocklinskier New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2009
    Messages:
    295
    RG,

    The same mantra keeps going round and round....use data from a comparible bullet.

    The chart you refered me too, yes, it does have data for 125g bullet, but no COAL, no description of said bullet. It could be a Lyman cast, it coulb be a RCBS cast, or any other array of bullets that have little to no comparable feature to my bullet.

    I have decided a COAL determined by the canalure on the bullet, but at that given length, there is no corresponding data that I have found for that. And without a chrony, there is no way to know what I am getting assuming that the gun doesn't go Ka-Boom

    Apparently no one here has tried these particular bullets or have any data to share, so I may even just cut my loses at chuck the stupid things. $25 (box of 250) of bullets is not worth damage to me or my gun.

    As for HSM....never again. To me, this is like buying a set of truck tires, getting them mounted, and then the info on the sidewall says "Load ranges and inflation pressures can be found on comparible tires from other manufacturers" Dont think so. Especially if those tires could cause you bodily injury.

    Major manufacturers print load data. Rainier, Laser cast, etc. are glad to give you start loads, and even detailed data for their bullets. HSM doesn't even want to give you the most basic info or any customer support.

    Now perhaps I'm being hard nosed here, but to me, a company should be who makes reloading components, should not be this difficult to get information from. Customer service rating '0' from this consumer.

    If there were a website, phone #, or anyone who would admit to working for HSM, I would contact them with my dis-satifaction. Bottom line, I have already wasted more time trying to find a simple starting point than the bullets are worth. I think I will make fishing weights out of them and move on!
  8. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2003
    Messages:
    6,304
    Location:
    Hesperia, CA
    Just use the data in the Lyman manual. This is not rocket science. The data there will work just fine. It does include COAL lengths, both recommended and maximum. Just stay between them and you are fine.

    LDBennett
  9. rocklinskier

    rocklinskier New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2009
    Messages:
    295
    The lymann book shows a 150 g that is much different design than the 155 HSM. Lyman list COAL as 1.090 the HSM COAL (as determined by the canelure) is 1.420

    Lymans 125 J (which The Hunting Shak guy say "DO NO USE")shows COAL as 1.125....again, drastically diff than 1.420. So how can one say that it is comparible. If the COAL was even CLOSE, I would feel it could be a starting point, but with a difference of .300, that seems scetchy.
  10. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2003
    Messages:
    6,304
    Location:
    Hesperia, CA
    rocklinskier:

    I sure don't know what data you are looking at but there is no data in MY Lyman manual that shows any bullet for 38SPL that is 1.090 COAL???? That is 9mm specs or ????? The length should be for 38 Special around approximately 1.5 inches! and for 357 MAG around approximately 1.6 inches. What in the world are you looking at?

    If you are bound and determined to throw away your box of bullets then be my guest. But you are not using data I see in the Lyman manual.

    It makes little difference what the the bullet shape is for these cast bullet loads. What is important is that you do not make the remaining cavity where the powder resides any smaller than the data suggests or too long so that the cartridge will not fit the gun. It may take a little math but it is doable.

    LDBennett
  11. rocklinskier

    rocklinskier New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2009
    Messages:
    295
    Oops,...my apologies, your right, I let the page flip (grabbed the book in a hurry)....there is a 120gr rn (again, very diff looking than my plated FN) but it does show a 1.45...at least thats in the ball park from my 1.410-1.420. .030 length difference. The bullet base shown is VERY different...is there any way to know the cavity calculation without having the bullet from the book? That lyman bullet #356242 is a double groove, lead cast. Mine is a cylindrical,smooth base with only a canalure groove in the plating. Actually looks very much like the jacketed HPJ on pate 353 (hornady JHP#35710) , but again, diff. data, not at all coresponding to the "lead" load, and having been warned to not use that data......

    It just seems like a lot of trial, error, and unknowns to just get to a starting place. I think I will buy a box of Laser cast (who is more than willing to provide info) and move on. Time it take to test unknown starts, set up/borrow a chrony, etc. just to get a base to build on....not worth it.

    Thanks for pointing out the oops though...I am a little :eek:
  12. mikld

    mikld Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2009
    Messages:
    786
    Location:
    Oregon
    For revolver loads forget OAL for now. Crimp in the crimp groove or cannalure. Just follow listed load data and manufacturer's directions and don't overthink the process. :rolleyes:
  13. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2003
    Messages:
    6,304
    Location:
    Hesperia, CA
    rocklinskier:

    You can scale the picture in the Lyman Manual to determine the size of the cavity behind the bullet. OR.......

    These bullet were made for 357 and 38 SPL (I assume if the packaging is so marked). If you load at the starting load for both 38 and 357 and crimp into the canalure and if you get into the range between the suggested COAL and the Max COAL for the cartridge (as shown on the drawing on the first pages of each section) you will probably be fine. If you are worried then load up a couple of each and fire them to check for excessive pressures.

    If you stay away from full loads most pistol cartridges are pretty tolerant of bullet type (cast bullets we are talking about here). Just don't seat the bullet too deeply. Bullets made for a specific cartridge usually have the canalure exactly where it needs to be.

    As far as using straight cast bullet without the plating, you may see leading in the barrel. If you keep the load level to under 1000 FPS you MAY not get any leading. If you load plated bullet to less than 1000 FPS you will NOT see any bore leading, in my experience.

    Sorry to get so brutal with you but your responses were pretty agitated. We are here to help but you have to do your part to earn that help. That means read the manuals and have several manuals so that you can attempt to figure out the answer before coming to us. Reloading is not a natural thing. You have to educate yourself as it is new to everyone in the beginning. Do it wrong and you and your gun risk being hurt. I think you may be on the right path now. Good luck and feel free to ask questions after you have studied the subject as much as you can. Believe it or not ALL the answers are in the manuals but it takes several to get the full picture.

    LDBennett
  14. howlnmad

    howlnmad Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,819
    Location:
    Harriman, Tn
    And if after all that you're still uncomfortable with them, Drop me a PM, I'll buy them from you.

    howlnmad
  15. rocklinskier

    rocklinskier New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2009
    Messages:
    295
    LD,

    I did not take anything you said as "brutal". My apparent agitation was and is with the manufacturer of said component, not with anyone on this board.

    And of course, my mis-quote of the COAL from the wrong page this A.M. made me look stupid, but I did acknowledge that mistake.

    As far as not putting effort into the cause, I've spent hours combing thru the three manuals I have. (speer, lyman, hornady + data from Oregon Trail) I suppose that even though it's not rocket science, three sources may not be enough to build on. Since all three list fairly different data for the caliper, makes it even more confusing.

    My frustration is that HSM is not willing to even be contacted for the most simple of questions. Just not a good experience for me.

    all the reading preaches over and over again the dangers of not using proper data etc. hence my hesitation to just throw a load based on data that was just soley related to the same weight bullet, but with not much more to go on.

    What I am seeing here from those of you who have reloaded far longer than I, is that the data is not so critical to the bullet shape, length, design, etc. as long as the weight is similar. (yes, that is not perhaps verbatim, but you get the drift) I think the quote was "it's not rocket science".

    I will take your advise, and give it a try with the min loads listed in the Lyman book. But i will not be buying any more HSM lead. It's just so much easier with any of the other bullets I have purchased for my other weapons to find and formulate a reasonable and comfortable starting point. As I mentioned, Laser cast (oregon trail) and rainier are more than happy to provide basic info for getting started with their cast products, and i am much more comfortable with that.

    Much thanks to those of you who made the effort(s) to help. I apologize if my comments were taken as disrespectful. Not meant that way.
  16. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2003
    Messages:
    6,304
    Location:
    Hesperia, CA
    rocklinskier:

    No offense taken. Do have fun with reloading and be safe.

    For cast,swaged, or plated loads you pretty much do not have to take into account the shape of the bullet but that is NOT true for jacketed bullets. Jacketed bullets are a lot harder for the powder load to move down the barrel. That resistance to movement allows the pressure to build more and can become excessive behind some bullet designs. Do follow the recipes for jacketed bullets and carefully work the loads up. That goes for handguns and rifles.

    Also, you rarely find two manuals that will agree exactly on a recipe. Since all guns are different, all pressure test barrels suffer the same. There is no one source for the testing. Each publisher of the reloading manuals uses data from their test barrel so the recipes differ slightly. Publishers of reloading manuals make sure the loads they list are safe for any industry standard gun but the differences need to be considered. Regardless, use the starting loads and work them up watching for signs of excessive pressure, Never exceeding any listed load maximum. Be wary of "old hands" that think the max's are there as starting loads. They'll never tell you how many guns they have hurt with that approach.

    LDBennett
  17. rocklinskier

    rocklinskier New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2009
    Messages:
    295
    Sounds like logical, good advise.

    Thanks
  18. mgatc

    mgatc New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2010
    Messages:
    70
    Location:
    Florence, SC
    Being relatively new to reloading, I've been very intrigued by this thread.

    I too shoot plated bullets in order to be able to shoot more and save money.
    I have read three of the plated manufactures (HSM, Ranier, Berry) load data. I was surprised at the lack of definitive recipes for their products. I too poured over my manuals trying to interpolate the instructions
    against the vague ones provided by the bullet makers.

    Some might argue that the information provided is definitive. It may be for an experienced loader. For someone just starting, there seems to be a large margin for error if good judgement is not applied. Beginning reloaders do not have the experience necessary to have developed this good judgement. It almost boils down to guesswork which I think we can all agree is not a good practice.

    What would be the reason the manufactures' would not test and develop specific load data for their products? I am sure there is some expense involved but overall it would appear to be in their best interest from a marketing, and perhaps liability, standpoint to do so. I know that I would have a great deal more confidence in buying/using a certain product if definitive data were available.

    I don't know how the business works but wouldn't a powder maker be interested in promoting their product to be used with these rounds and assist in creating recipes? Anyone here that works in the industry?

    Food for thought,

    M
  19. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2003
    Messages:
    6,304
    Location:
    Hesperia, CA
    Cast, swaged, and plated bullets come in many, many shapes and sizes. There are literally hundreds of small cast bullet makers that sell their bullets all over the USA. Lyman, Lee, RCBS, and others make hundreds of different bullets mold for home casters. No reloading supplier can afford to test all possible combinations including various alloys. It turns out that for handgun loads using cast, swaged, or plated bullets it is not that critical. That is because the lead bullets without jackets all leave the barrel of the guns fast enough such that they all pretty much produce the same velocity for the same weight bullets in the same caliber. "Cast Bullet" loads are pretty universal and normally as long as the sizing is within industry limits, they work for all shapes of bullets of the same weight. (This is not true of jacketed bullets!) Another factor is cast, swaged, and plated bullets are almost always loaded to much lower velocities than jacketed bullets or gas checked cast bullets just to avoid terrible leading of the barrel and to assure any kind of accuracy.

    The reloading manual cast bullet load for a specific weight bullet and cartridge can be safely used for virtually all cast, swaged, and plated bullets. For more cast loads RCBS, Lyman, and LEE publish manuals are the places to look. When it comes to jacketed handgun loads then you need to match components much more closely to the recipes in reloading manuals. Different manufacturer's same weight bullets may have very different recipes because some jacketed bullet are much harder to push through the barrel fast enough to keep the pressures in tow. A review of several manuals when comparing jacketed loads for the same weight of a cast, swaged, or plated load will reveal how far apart they are in load levels with the "Cast Loads" being pretty mild.

    This discussion is for handgun loads and may or may not apply to rifles. Some of it applies for cast bullets in rifles but not that many of us use cast bullets in rifles. Most of us use jacketed bullets for which you must follow the recipes much more closely, using the recipes for the particular manufacturer's bullet unless the manual states otherwise.

    New reloaders should make every attempt to use the components listed in the reloading manuals. There are too many variables in reloading to get wrong. To get good results immediately follow the manuals exactly.

    LDBennett
  20. mgatc

    mgatc New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2010
    Messages:
    70
    Location:
    Florence, SC
    LD, nice informative post.

    I am only using the plated stuff in the .40 and .357 where the volume necessitates using lower cost products. Published FPS in the LEE manual is around 900 using Unique.

    Are there jacketed bullets available that are comparable in cost to plated?

    Thanks,
    m
Similar Threads
Forum Title Date
The Ammo & Reloading Forum Load data suggestions Sunday at 10:53 AM
The Ammo & Reloading Forum Substitute load data? Apr 12, 2014
The Ammo & Reloading Forum Swing in Load Data Mar 18, 2014
The Ammo & Reloading Forum 357 mag load data Mar 9, 2014
The Ammo & Reloading Forum 30 carbine, 115gr LRN load data Feb 28, 2014