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Load Development: Ladder Test

84K views 127 replies 40 participants last post by  Don Fischer 
#1 ·
From time to time we get on the subject of load development here at TFF Ammo and Reloading Forum, and I always recommend the Audette Ladder test to anyone asking my opinion on the best load development method. Its the method I use because its faster than the conventional method of loading 5 at each increment and shooting the groups, its just as definitive, and it saves valuable ammo. Here is a link that describes exactly what the ladder test is and how you use it to develop a load for your rifle or handgun.

http://www.desertsharpshooters.com/manuals/incredload.pdf

I have my own method of doing the Ladder test. Instead of shooting one POA on one target and recording the individual POIs on a separate sheet, I decided it would further simplify the process and eliminate the need for recording where the shots hit on a shooter copy of the target by making up a master sheet (quite large of course) with 20 separate targets on it. Labeling each individual target with the number of the shot and the load it contained. Of course you do all of this before shooting the test and set it up so you work from left to right, and top to bottom. Here is an example of the test i fired today with my savage .308 at 200 yds.
 

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#52 ·
JLA and Others,
I have done ladder tests with my rifles and have had good results The PROBLEM is when I try to do the tests with my pistols. Long story short, Because of my eye sight (age) I can not verify that my aim is exactly the same each shot ( as Bullet misses target, bullets shooting left of target then go to right side, ect) This is at 25 yards with sand bags and what ever else I can find to steady my aim. Question is if I bring the target closer I suspect my results will be skewed as the bullet has not had time to develope its flight path. Would this assumption be correct and I would just be wasting powder and bullets? I just want to find a good combo to reload for. I am shooting a 9mm with mixed cases, 124 grn hornady RN using Unique or W231 powder. Thanks

Chuck
 
#53 ·
That is exactly right Chuck. The close range will tell you lies as to what the load is doing. Id say from the bench to 15 yds all youre reading is where the sights are pointed, and of course shooter fundamentals.

My advice for you is one of 2 things.. Mount a scope to your handgun so as to aide in keeping an exact POA at 25-30 yds.. OR, select a middle of the road load for your 124 gr 9mm loads and be happy with the accuracy you get. Unless the handgun is an uber accurate target gun, the middle of the road load may be the only practical choice anyway. ;)
 
#54 ·
ChuckR, I sympathize with you has I have the same problems/results from my attempts at developing that just right hand gun load. It is usually my poor pistol craft that leads me to say screw it and I do what Josh suggested. But I do keep trying. I have loads of a Laser Cast 158gr. swc ahead of Unique and another batch on top of HP-38 all the way from starting loads up to 1000 fps. All to be shot in a S&W 6" Model 27. I will be trying these as soon as my right hand heals from carpal tunnel surgery. I stay optimistic that the next time I will do it all the right way and get those results we all look for.
 
#55 ·
JLA, Todd51,
Thank you for your feed back and insite. JLA I am shooting a Beretta M9 that has no railing for a scope, I have tried looking for a rail adaptor but have not had any success, One more quick question as I think it is off-topic for this post.
My manuels state for Unique powder 124grn bullet 4.0 MIN to 5.0 MAX, the Unique powder chart states 5.0 MIN to 5.8 MAX. JLA, I believe you stated in another post that you used 5.3 of Unique with a 9mm 124 grn bullet, could you please comfirm this. I tried what the manuals stated but had a few FTE and FTL. I want to try what Unique charts say but am worried of over pressure (still new to reloading :) :) ) Thanks again guys for all your help.

Chuck
 
#56 ·
Yes sir. 5.3 is pretty much a starting load and it shoots well. It is one of the few starting loads that does work well in the 9mm luger too. The 9 tends to like it a little on the hot side especially in the M9 in order to cycle the action reliably. Alliants webpage lists 5.8 gr unique uner a 124 GDHP as a MAX LOAD so work it up from 10% below that.
 
#57 ·
Ok so I am getting into the discussion a little late as here but I have a question. This concept is new to me and it makes a ton of sense. I am just wondering if it would make more sense to do three shot groups on each load to look for consistency? On one hand I think that 3 shot groups would show a pattern at the same time as the range but on the other hand I think error could be ruled out by the "sweet spot" found with single shots for each load.
 
#58 ·
The group testing comes after the initial ladder test. Usually when you perform a ladder test you will end up with 2 major sweet spots within any given data spread. You shoot your ladder test, meticulously, attantion to detail is the key, and then you group test your sweet loads. and voila, you select the one that shoots the best. I have done so many ladder tests ive lost count, but one noteworthy observation is this.. 98% of the rifles and cartridges ive tested with this method seem to like a charge somewhere around .8-1.2 gr below max charge.
 
#59 ·
Thanks for the additional information. There is something to be said about this as your note says that 98% of the cartridges you tested like .8 to 1.2 below max charge and that is where my sweet spots have been as well.

I'm going to try and get my .270 worked up in the next couple weeks although I am not sure how much time I can dedicate to it right now. I sure wish I did not live in town, our local ranges and my hours do not work so well. I hate driving 1.5 hours to test a load.

Mike
 
#60 ·
I hear ya. I do not miss those days. I too used to live in town. Then I bought some land and built a range. Been happy ever since.. ;)
 
#61 ·
So I didnt destroy the aimpoint. It wasnt really necessary for this test. buuut...

Its just something i have always done when shoting groups. And when i set up for a ladder test its just old habit.

Having your rifle set up to hit center will very quickly mess your aiming point up when your rifle is 1/2 MOA capable.
WOW, the knowledge on these pages........... Thanks :D:D:D
 
#62 ·
WOW. 3rd time I read this and the light just came on. Thanks JLA. Does this work the same with pistol; 9mm, 40s&w and 45acp? Have made 10 of each working mway up, but this will save me some ammo.
Your wifes find is what SLAPPED me in the face. She must be a hell-of a woman.;)
 
#63 ·
yessir. I cant think of anything worth trading her for.. ;)

and yes, this system works for all firearms
 
#64 ·
Well, finally got to that ladder test for My 300 savage. got to the 7th shot and my scope broke. everything was going higher and higher right. sending it in to Bushnell to see what it's going to cost to fix. Its a bushnell 2.5-10X45. closetest scope they have to it now cost about $500. It has been on this rifle since my father gave it to me some 25+ years ago.I guess as long as it don't cost more than $200 or so to fix I'll be o.k.. Then I'll try again.
First 6 shots looked good. Could see the pattern of the wave in the barrel. OH well!!:(:(I'll have the loads ready and waiting
 
#65 ·
That sux. I used to try to save as much as I coul don scopes. But one day, I broke the 1000 dollar thresh-hold and purchased a Nikon Monarch X. And now, sadly ive become a quality glass snob. The one comforting factor associated with high end glass is an unconditional lifetime warranty. And this is across the board. If a manufacturer offers a scope that costs upwards of a grand, it will have a lifetime warranty. My next scope is most likely going to be a 1st focal Leupold Mk 4 or a NF NSX F1. mil-dots of course and im leaning toward M5 turrets.
 
#66 ·
To further justify my stance tho. I get the honor of training with guys that run scopes in the range of 1800-5000 dollars. I have seen NF scopes with .30 cal bullet holes thru the objective bell. of course they fog up but they still held zero and continued to put lead on target at 1000 yds.

The guys running US Optics and Schmidt & Benders are crazy. Even now I don't think id ever spend more than NF money. but those USO and S&B optics are in the 4 and 5 thousand dollar range. but the glass really isn't any better than a 2800 dollar NF, and the NF has a better parallax adjustment.
 
#69 ·
were you actually shooting at the individual target squares?

It is normal too see a steady rise in impact, but not to that extreme.

normally you will see a fluctuation with a steady rise in impact then the fluctuation will level off for a few rounds. then resume and level off again. But the trend is always a steady rise in POI. You are looking for level sequences. those are sweet spots.

I did a .308 ladder test a couple weeks ago with 3 different powders. I came away from that test with 4 separate loads using the 3 different powders and only shot 49 rounds. And the fascinating thing about the test was. all 3 powders had the sweet spot in the same spot. they mirrored each other perfectly.
 
#70 ·
Yes, I was shooting at the individual squares. This is the same results I was getting when my scope broke. I thought it was a little extreme too. Figure I'll use the load at 14-15 for hunting this year and until I can find some more 165 gr. sst and I'll try it again.

Since 150 gr. seems to be the preferred bullet for 300 savage, I think I'll look for them and start over. Thanks for your help
 
#71 ·
the extreme rise in impact point is indicative of pressure spike.

based on that observation and looking at your graph I would put your max load for that set of components at load 11. and the sweet spot youre looking for is between loads 8 and 10.

Also I notice youre ladder is in half grain increments, which is way too coarse for testing the .300 savage IMO. Id suggest you re-do this ladder test using load 11 as max, and do it in .2 gr increments down from there. If you did everything right and you manage to duplicate how you did it this time, I bet you will see the sweet spot is still between load 8 and 10 charge increments but you will be able to pinpoint the center of the barrel time/charge weight correlation.
 
#73 · (Edited)
Guys, I have been working with my printer/shipper guy and we have developed a professionally designed target specifically for shooting ladder tests using this graphing method. We are in the final stages of deciding on the target size, which im thinking 16 separate shot targets measuring up to 6"X6", but we could go as low as 4"X4" to make them less expensive.

Here I have a 25 square grid prototype, its far too big, but will give an accurate example of what were working on. The shot targets are 6"X6" and include a 1" square grid across the entire face. This is going to make plotting your impacts EXACTLY very easy. Not to mention the aiming points are EXACTLY centered and in the same spot for shot to shot consistency. This is further refining the results of this method of ladder testing so youre ONLY reading what the load and rifle are doing and not so much of how perfect you made up your target.

We still have not settled on a selling price as of yet, but that price will greatly depend on final size of the target and quantity ordered.

Yall give me some feedback on this project. Having something like this made specific, especially when its something NOBODY else has thought to do can be a fairly large investment for us and we are prepared to take it on if we can get enough interest in such a project.

I am also planning on putting together an instruction pamphlet to send with the ordered targets, that will outline how to set your ladder test up and proceed with it for the best results possible.

What do you guys think something like this would be worth, per single targets, 5 packs, etc.??
 

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#113 · (Edited by Moderator)
He did mention in a later post that he thought he was going to offer a package with instructions and sell them. I will PM him. Thanks

Did you get these printed and for sale?
Guys, I have been working with my printer/shipper guy and we have developed a professionally designed target specifically for shooting ladder tests using this graphing method. We are in the final stages of deciding on the target size, which im thinking 16 separate shot targets measuring up to 6"X6", but we could go as low as 4"X4" to make them less expensive.

Here I have a 25 square grid prototype, its far too big, but will give an accurate example of what were working on. The shot targets are 6"X6" and include a 1" square grid across the entire face. This is going to make plotting your impacts EXACTLY very easy. Not to mention the aiming points are EXACTLY centered and in the same spot for shot to shot consistency. This is further refining the results of this method of ladder testing so youre ONLY reading what the load and rifle are doing and not so much of how perfect you made up your target.

We still have not settled on a selling price as of yet, but that price will greatly depend on final size of the target and quantity ordered.

Yall give me some feedback on this project. Having something like this made specific, especially when its something NOBODY else has thought to do can be a fairly large investment for us and we are prepared to take it on if we can get enough interest in such a project.

I am also planning on putting together an instruction pamphlet to send with the ordered targets, that will outline how to set your ladder test up and proceed with it for the best results possible.

What do you guys think something like this would be worth, per single targets, 5 packs, etc.??
This is something that Josh made for himself. Post #2 describes (kinda) what he did.
 
#76 ·
That's what were leaning toward Chuck. 5 packs with an instruction pamphlet.

I just got back from the range testing the prototype. I ran 2 tests with 2 bullet weights in .308 at 200 yds. I used 15 round ladder tests for each bullet weight and used shot target 16 to confirm zero before starting each test.

This is a very convenient target set up and I really like the grid. I also realized a bonus perk to the light colored grid. Given good range conditions with no mirage the light colored grid will help you zero your parallax setting. Meaning I couldn't even make out the grid unless my parallax was spot on then it was clear as a bell.

I trimmed the 25 shot target pictured above into this 16 shot target. I think this is the perfect size for ladder testing.

On a side note, Take a look at my results for this test. This is something I find increasingly interesting, and is why I like to test multiple loads on the same graph. The 168 and 178 gr loads both used the same cases, primers and propellants. And both loads had an optimal barrel time within a single load increment of one another. Yet there is a whole entire grain of powder difference between the 2 loads. Proof that its not the amount of powder or brand, bullet weight or brand or even case that makes a load shoot well. Its finding that exact pressure window that allows the bullet to leave the muzzle at that sweet spot during the rifles vibration cycle.
 

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