Local News - The Continued Wussification of the US

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by LurpyGeek, Nov 1, 2007.

  1. LurpyGeek

    LurpyGeek Active Member

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    Police Warn Crime Victims Against Taking On the Bad Guy
    October 31st, 2007 @ 10:04pm
    Gene Kennedy Reporting

    Victims taking on their attackers: It's happened many times in just the last week. Victims are taking the law into their own hands. In some cases the outcome is good; in others it's a death sentence. Now local police weigh in on the issue.

    Surveillance video captured a robbery at a Kentucky Fried Chicken in North Carolina. When the manager couldn't get the safe open the robber pulled the trigger, but the gun didn't fire, so the manager fought back.

    Salt Lake City police sergeant J.R. Nelson said, "I would not suggest people doing this." (!?!!!)

    Lt. Lamar Ewell adds, "We encourage people not to fight back."

    It's the same message we hear every time we do these stories, but many are ignoring the warnings.

    Lt. Ewell said, "I think it's human nature, and we're tired of being victimized."

    Last night at Fashion Place Mall a woman fought off a teenager trying to steal her bag. It was a similar story yesterday at the E-Z Mart in Salt Lake City, only the thief was armed. The clerk didn't care; he beat the robber with his own gun. And two days ago, when two men tried to carjack a couple one of the victims chased the thugs away with a metal pipe then actually followed them to a residence and called police. That makes three cases of victims fighting back this week.

    Lt. Ewell said, "Well, as a police department we haven't noticed it's been on the rise. It's probably just a coincidence in the last month or so."

    In the case of the attempted car-jacking the victim helped police arrest two suspects. But in August the owner of a hair salon lost her life when police say she pulled a gun on an armed thief, and the crook shot her to death. Police arrested one of the suspects but they're still looking for a second man. That was a case of self-defense, but police believe fighting back cost that woman her life.

    ----------

    This is bull crap to put it lightly. CCW holders here in Utah (which are many) are outraged by these statements and some think that Lt. Ewell should lose his job. It's a pretty regular thing for law enforcement to make statements like "compliance will help you survive," but this is outrageous. First of all, fighting back is not "taking the law into [your] own hands," it is accepting responsibility for your own safety and refusing to be a victim. The part that really gets me is the Lt.'s statement that the manager at the KFC in S. Carolina should have done NOTHING after THE TRIGGER WAS PULLED. To suggest that the manager should do nothing after some @$#*& just tried to shoot him in the head, but simply wait for the @$#*& to try again is COMPLETELY INSANE!!! What kind of a message does it send to the criminal element in our society when the police tell the publici to go along with whatever we are told?
  2. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Well-Known Member

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    I agree completely. Protecting yourself and others is not taking the law into your own hands; it's taking responsibility for life.
  3. Tom Militano

    Tom Militano New Member

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    Sounds to me like lt ewell needs to be collecting trash instead of protecting them. Maybe he needs a job with the sanitation dept.
  4. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    I agree with the sentiment, but I too am "guilty" of advising people in my company to "Not resist, give them everything they want, just be a good witness..."

    I have done this training for about 30 years, in three different companies, and the message I have to teach, at least in the private sector, is based not necessarily on Right or Wrong, but Liability.

    On the other hand, I tend to base my talks on "There is nothing in the store worth dying over, if they want the store's things or money. give it to them. You surviving and being a good witness, by staying calm and remembering what you saw or heard, for me or the police to help catch these people will make you a better 'hero' than if you resist and get hurt"

    And I have had to "counsel" people over the years for doing things frankly I might have done, but were against policy....like the elderly cashier in one of my stores in Michigan about ten years ago that was held up at closing, that followed the robber outside when he left, and when she saw him pull out the "gun" and saw it was a green Martian squirt gun, CHASED the young punk for three blocks until he got away...:p

    (I told her after administering the "Write up, " "Thank You, but if you do it again your fired....:cool:") I ALSO wrote up and it was ultimately used to FIRE the *&%^%## Assistant manager that didn't even LOCK THE FRONT DOOR after closing...:mad:

    The NEXT one I refused to "Write Up," even though I was advised, I convinced them a 'Verbal Warning" was enough...The store was robbed at gunpoint at closing for the second time, while the robber "roughed up" a couple of employees and an assistant manager the first time, he didn't really hurt anybody, but a month later he does it AGAIN, with the SAME assistant mgr on duty, and when he orders her to order all the associates up front on the intercom, one young stockboy realizes something is wrong, peeks up front, then runs into the stockroom and hides, calling 911 on his cell phone that policy says he is not to be carrying on duty.

    The robber had been hitting all over Indy, the cops WANTED him, had a few cars in the area, they got there in time to chase him on foot in a rainstorm we got back all the money, even though wet:p guy goes away for a long time after admitting to a whole string of robberies...

    ...and I am told the stockboy is to be "Written Up" for not cooperating, and putting other employees at risk, AND for having his cell phone with him while on duty...:cool:


    Needless to say, I "intercepted" that one...and volunteered to "handle it" with a "verbal."

    In a nutshell, it was "Fine Job, just don't get caught texting your friends or taking personal calls on your cell phone on the clock....":p Then I put him in for a $100 reward, which he got.;)

    And I also have changed it a little bit over the years, to more of "Don't get hurt for just the Company's benefit, but if your life is in danger, only you can make the decision" and "Cooperate and give him anything he wants EXCEPT your life. " I also advise them to do ANYTHING to resist, kick, scream, fight....if he want to "Take you with him..."


    But it's different with Police, and to be honest, different Police react differently. And not to stick up for any of the above, but a LOT of cops deal with a LOT of "Stupid" people that probably WOULD endanger others if they tried to resist...




    But I think this whole trend started years ago in the Big Cities....I remember when I was in college, over 30 years ago, just a "Farmboy" sitting around drinking with a bunch of city kids from "New Yawk," "Lonk Island" and "New Joisey..." and one of my friends from the Island's told us his father had just been mugged on a subway in "the City," and had got his hand free and swung his briefcase and whacked the guy between the eyes with it and then got away, and I said something like 'Good for him," and all the OTHER kids jumped my case!

    They said "Do you want to DIE for a few bucks?" and they just wouldn't listen and called me a "Stupid Hick" when I said it would be better for the MUGGER to have to answer that question! That's when I ALSO heard "smart" city people always carry $10 "Muggers Money" in their wallet. and hide the rest of their money somewhere else, because "If the Mugger gets at least $10 to buy drugs he probably won't hurt you, but if he gets nothing he's liable to KILL you.":eek:

    Of course, that was "pre-Giuliani" New YOrk, I heard from a lot of people he made it better, but that it's getting worse again under Liberal Bloomberg...

    Now I was paying my own way through college, and I'm sorry, $10 was a LOT to me then, (heck, I get accused by some that it's a lot for me NOW!:eek::p) I made up my mind that (1) NOBODY was going to get even $1 of MY money mugging me without a fight. and (2) I was never going to live in A city if I could avoid it, and I would spend as little time in THE "City" as I had too.

    What's funny is my wife even wants to visit NYC, she has never been there...I spent a day in NYC when I was 17 visiting family friends in NJ....and it was PLENTY for me...
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2007
  5. 358 winchester

    358 winchester *TFF Admin Staff*

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    NYC have you lost your mind HECK I don't even like going to Pensacola Fl. and Century makes me so nervous I carry but Pensacola makes me pack two and an extra 2 boxes of ammo!
  6. obxned

    obxned New Member

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    Easy victims provide the positive reinforcement that encourages BGs to go on to bigger and better crimes. If you aren't part of the solution, then you are part of the problem!
  7. USMC-03

    USMC-03 New Member

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    I've tried to find an archive of the story for the details but haven't been able to; sorry if I don't quite have the facts right.

    A couple of years ago, here in Oregon, an elderly couple was faced with a would-be home invader trying to break their door down. The gentleman of the house armed himself with a handgun and his wife called 911. It ended with the intoxicated subject lying on the front lawn when police finally arrived. Later, the next day, when the 911 tape was released, the perpetrator could be clearly heard slamming against the door, and the 911 operator telling the lady to have her husband put down the gun. The attacker only stopped assaulting the after a shot was heard on the tape and the 911 operator still telling the lady to have the gentleman put the gun down. Finally, when the operator told the couple that police were arriving, he put the gun down as he should.
    There was a rather large local outcry against the 911 operator. No idea if she is still employed there but I hope not.

    Fortes Fortuna Javat
  8. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    03, I'm actually pleasantly surprised that the old guy even HAD a handgun in Oregon...

    ...or that he wasn't charged after the dust settled...:cool:
  9. USMC-03

    USMC-03 New Member

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    Polish,

    While the progressives (wink, nod) have a chokehold on the state, they have made very little headway on disarming the peasantry.

    Oregon's constitution is very specific about the people possessing firearms for self defense and we have a pretty good CCW law. As I recall, here have actually been attempts to charge those using a gun for self defense in past years, but they went nowhere.

    The most recent rumblings from the gun control crowd are requirements liability insurance for all gun owners similar to that required for vehicles. I will give them a "C" for creativity.

    Fortes Fortuna Javat
  10. White Hawk

    White Hawk New Member

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    There was a robbery at a pizzeria here recently where the owner and an employee complied completely. And the robber shot them execution-style in the backs of their heads, killing them both.

    The employee was the son of woman I graduated high school with.

    Compliance is not a guarantee of survival.
  11. 358 winchester

    358 winchester *TFF Admin Staff*

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    NO truer words ever spoken.
  12. LurpyGeek

    LurpyGeek Active Member

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    Polish, I would agree and I know that fighting back is not the best route in every situation. I agree that material things aren't worth my life. But as is also said above, compliance is not a guarantee of survival and if I was in a situation where I was even just being robbed of material things, if the opportunity presented itself, I would definitely fight back.
  13. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    Oh, Lurpy, don't get me wrong!

    What I TEACH to others because it's part of my job does NOT necessarily mean that's what I would do in the same circumstances, or if it was MY money or stuff.

    Using a gun or force to defend yourself is a given, right up to killing the other guy if necessary to save your life or others...we probably all would face that and not blink an eye, at least the "choir" posting here....


    But you are right, killing someone over a TV, or $10 is kind of lame on both ends, but it only REALLY seems to bother "GOOD people," the CRIMINAL sure isn't "philosophizing" over it, heck, may be too hardened or strung out to even THINK about it...

    The TRAGEDY is the law abiding gun owner that may have to KILL somebody in self-defense, over a TV, or $10, sometimes it's even a whacked out son or other relative!

    Sometimes even doing the RIGHT thing and surviving can scar someone for life too...

    And yeah, compliance isn't any guarantee either, there have been deaths in my company during robberies too, where the people were "executed" even though apparently compliant, but statistically speaking, MOST robbers, who rob a STORE or other very public place, are none too bright (if they WERE they'd be robbing BANKS...) and are probably as scared as you are, and want to get in and get out...STATISTICALLY speaking you are better off to comply, or at least comply ENOUGH, so he leaves quickly.

    But STATISTICS don't cover the ONE wild drug addict, or the one truly evil person, or the escaped murderer with nothing left to lose...
  14. pickenup

    pickenup Active Member

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    EAT

    SLEEP

    OBEY

    LET THEM TRY A SECOND TIME, TO SHOOT YOU IN THE HEAD.
    A THIRD, A FOURTH, THEY WILL GET IT RIGHT EVENTUALLY.
  15. Exactly so, Polish. By definition, there is no way to know if the assailant only wants your TV and will leave without doing harm if he gets it, or if he's gonna kill you anyway. Logically, the only rational course is to assume the worst and act accordingly. I agree, a sum of money or a material object is not inherently worth risking your life over, but your person most definitely is.
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