Lundy's Lane

Discussion in 'General Military Arms & History Forum' started by Xracer, Jul 12, 2007.

  1. Xracer

    Xracer *TFF Admin Staff Mediator*

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    Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet!
    "At Queenston Heights and Lundy's Lane our brave fathers, side by side, for freedom, homes, and loved ones dear, firmly stood and nobly died. And those dear rights which they maintained, we swear to yield them never. Our watchword evermore shall be, the Maple Leaf forever! - The Maple Leaf Forever"

    Bunnyhunter.....from Wikipedia:

    "There had been much fighting at close quarters. Veteran British officers, who had fought against Napoleon in Spain and Portugal during the Peninsular War, were horrified at the carnage they had witnessed at Lundy's Lane. Drummond reported, "Of so determined a Character were [the American] attacks directed against our guns that our Artillery Men were bayonetted by the enemy in the Act of loading, and the muzzles of the Enemy's Guns were advanced within a few Yards of ours".

    The battle confirmed that the American regular forces had evolved into a highly professional army. Scott is widely credited for this progress, having modelled and trained his troops using French Revolutionary drills and exercises.

    Like the overall war, there is some dispute about the actual outcome of the battle. Some historians say that the Americans retreated, based upon General Drummond's report that the British held the field. Others state that the British retreated during the night but took the position back in the morning when the Americans retreated because of lack of supplies.

    Evidence compiled by Donald E. Graves, a Canadian historian employed at the Directorate of History, Department of National Defence Canada, provides what is likely the most complete and unbiased interpretation of the battle to date. Graves argues that General Drummond failed to use skirmish pickets to protect his guns, which were consequently captured by the Americans. The American force therefore appears to have won a pyrrhic victory, having captured the British artillery and forcing the British to withdraw from the heights after failing to recapture their guns.

    In respect to the effect of the battle on the War, the British may claim a strategic victory since they had driven the American army away from Fort George and inflicted so many casualties that the Americans could no longer mount a major attack.

    The battle has been claimed as an American tactical victory on the grounds that they captured the Hill and foiled all attempts to recapture it. Yet the last attack of the day was by Winfield Scott's 1st U.S. Brigade - and it was repulsed. What counted in the end was that the American invasion of Canada was turned back."

    Sounds like both sides fought with great courage and distinction. IMO, General Winfield Scott was one of America's greatest generals. When you beat him, you beat the best.

    As Polish says.....Be LOUD and PROUD!
  2. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    What Wikipedia does NOT explain is the main reason WHY the Americans ran out of SUPPLIES...:p

    Those DAMM :p Canadian "Irregulars" that kept harrasing the crossings (The Niagara River is not that easy to traverse, the current is 8-10 MPh even below the falls, with whirlpools and whitewater almost the worst in the WORLD, so FEW available "safe" crossings....), burning the boats, capturing the supplies even if we had only a FEW miles of "supply lines....":cool:


    The "easier" crossing at Buffalo was then 20 or so miles through decidedly HOSTILE country (which caught us unprepared, like I said we naively thought the Canadians would WELCOME us....) was even worse...would have made our own "Swamp Fox" Franky Marion PROUD....even if it was AGAINST us....


    But it is a thing for Canadians to be PROUD. The pretty typical British condescension and cockiness at being able to "whip" the Americans, ('ell, they''ll RUN back home when they just SEE the magnificent Scarlet and White of our battle line and the sun glistenin' on our BAYONETS!:cool: ) would have FAILED them if they depended solely on it, it was really THEY that turned back the "Invasion" whether the cocky British wanted their help or NOT...


    But it IS funny, there are a LOT of Canadians STILL with a bug up their butt about our "Last Invasion," that is not very far below the surface, and after a few beers will bubble up and spill out, they'll not hesitate to give you a PIECE of their mind....:D


    And it happened in 1812!!!!:eek: ;) :D :D :D :D


    But you know, I think that is one of those "Good Battles" of History, (if there IS such a thing) in that even though a "draw," BOTH sides did well, and it actually CREATED a mutual trust and respect between the former antagonsists, rather than leading to centuries of "border skirmishes" and invasions and counter invasions...

    It's not a fluke that our border with Canada is like the LONGEST undefended (on both sides!)international border in the world! I think Lundy's Lane actually HELPED create it...and for that we ALL should be proud of that battle, on BOTH sides....
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2007
  3. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    And yeah, X, Winfield Scott is an American Hero, in my book one of THE best Generals we ever had, maybe THE best, and very few Americans even know who he WAS much less how GOOD he was...

    And his Campaign of "Maneuver" in Mexico was probably the most BRILLIANT campaign of "18th Century Warfare," even though at the TIME even HE knew it was an anachronism more fitting for the mid 1700s not the mid 1800s and even then foresaw great changes that were in store for "Modern Warfare", which even Robert E. Lee, who served UNDER him in Mexico, didn't wholly grasp until 1863!

    But his exploits, even though STUDIED by military experts the world over, were overshadowed at home by the hot head "glory hound" Zachary Taylor, that ALMOST upset the apple cart, and got most of the headlines, and forced Scott to do things he probably wouldn't have done, that led to the bloody fights at the end....


    And even old and decrepit and drooling in 1861, he was the ONLY General on BOTH sides that saw how the War would ultimately be fought and won, and his "Anaconda Plan" which was LAUGHED AT by his younger and "smarter" subordinates in 1861 actually turned out to be pretty much EXACTLY how the North WON!
  4. Xracer

    Xracer *TFF Admin Staff Mediator*

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    Geez Polish......something's wrong here. We've got to stop agreeing with each other or M&H will go to hell in a handbasket! :p

    We've got a bunch of Canadians in our Mini Club, and every once in a while they'll jokingly refer to our "invasions" of Canada.....

    I usually reply that they got to keep the side of Niagra Falls with all the good souvenir stands...... :D :D :D
  5. bunnyhunter12

    bunnyhunter12 New Member

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    I assure you, where I'm concerned, 1812 is water under the bridge.

    Interesting side note, in the movie Gangs of New York (historically inaccurate for the most part but still good) William Cutting or "Bill the Butcher", based loosely on William Poole, says his father was "Killed by the British on July 25th anno domine 1814" leading many to belive this was at Lundy's Lane.
  6. Xracer

    Xracer *TFF Admin Staff Mediator*

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    Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet!
    Yeah....but.....even though many historians consider him the "Father of the Regular Army" for the role he played in transforming the American military into a professional institution, in Mexico his army was made up almost entirely of hastily trained volunteers. He did the best with what he had.....and as you say, he did it brilliantly.

    BH.....next time we invade Canada, we'll come up to Newfoundland.....I'll bring some bones for those neat dogs you have. (I used to raise Newfies...or actually, was a home for unwanted Newfies).
  7. bunnyhunter12

    bunnyhunter12 New Member

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    Yeah X, they are neat. A couple of years back the Newfoundland tourism board put a picture of one on the visitor's guide cover with a caption that said "Even our dog's have webbed feet."

    And on the invasion side, if you come to my island, come as friends. We're the poorest province in the country and by consequence a very large proportion of our population has a military background. We're also HEAVILY armed, no handguns means more money for rifles and shotguns :D. My grandfather never let me stalk a moose, I had to set up an L-shaped ambush with my friends. Training you see.:p

    That being said we're also ranked as the friendliest and most hospitable province in Canada. It's not uncommon to hear reports from American tourists saying that they stopped in front of a house to ask a man in the yard directions and they usually get a response like, "Well it's a long ways up da road b'y, da missus just took a moose roast outta tha oven so you might as well come in for a bit of supper b'fore ye heads o'er dat way. When we's done eatin' I'll hop in me pickup and you can chase me up there, won't get ye's lost dat way." One word of caution though, utter the words "Stupid Newfie" while you're here and noone will ever find your body, the bogs never give up their dead.:eek: ;) :D
  8. Xracer

    Xracer *TFF Admin Staff Mediator*

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    Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet!
    I have a number of friends who've toured the Atlantic Provinces of Canada, and they all agree with you.

    Soooooo.....if I get a chance to come, it'll be with an olive branch in one hand, and dog bones in the other. :D
  9. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    If we invade, we'll just be bringing BEER this time...(uh, no, they got pretty good beer up there, don't need to BRING any....HHHHmnmmm)

    I GOT it, we'll bring the WHISKEY!:p (uh, no, come to think of it, the MIST is tough to beat for sippin'...HHmmmmm...)

    Oh well, when we invade, we'll surely think of SOMETHING you don't have and bring it along!:p ;) :D :D :D
  10. JohnK3

    JohnK3 New Member

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  11. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    Yeah John, that would work, but I was also thinking maybe my "legendary" Buffalo Hot Wings!:eek: :p :p :D :D
  12. bunnyhunter12

    bunnyhunter12 New Member

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    The welocome mat is always out boys and girls. Yes we do have beer, it's 5% and up unless you're a wussy and drink "light beer" aka, water.

    We also have whiskey in plenty, Canadian Club, Royal Reseve and my pesonal favorite Royal Crown.

    If you feel like playing pirate we also have many varieties of Rum. The one that tourists are always put up to is Newfie Screech, distilled in Jamaica but aged and bottled here.

    We have a little ceremony in Newfoundland called the Schreech In, where we take an unsuspecting "comefromaway" and get hom torecie some words, take a shot of Screech and kiss a codfish.

    Little secret I'll share with you guys, everyone tries to get the tourists to drink Screech but very few of us drink that crap. I prefer a nice Captain Morgan dark, or Lamb's amber.

    We also have BBQ John but bring some game, not "meat" (supermarket crap), I mean game my freezer is getting low on caribou and I'm completely out of rabbits. Would be nice to try some deer meat again, would you believe I've only tried it twice?
  13. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    Hickory Smoked for 12 hours MINIMUM BBQ, Bunny?:)
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