m 44 and m 91/30 mosin nagant

Discussion in 'Curio & Relics Forum' started by cointoss2, Mar 4, 2003.

  1. cointoss2

    cointoss2 Guest

    runabout199
    Member
    Posts: 11
    (3/25/02 3:38:49 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del All m 44 and m 91/30 mosin nagant
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    i have purchased these two rifles and apon refinishing them i have come across somthing of interest to me. in the stock on both models there is a piece cut out and then replaced . is there any reason for this? i am thinking some kind of atachment or somthing but dont know .do you guy/and or girls know the pourpose for this? it is the same piece taken out . any replly or thoughts on this matter would be greatly app. thanks

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2051
    (3/25/02 4:02:26 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m 44 and m 91/30 mosin nagant
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I have noticed this on a lot of the Mosin Nagants - it is the piece near the butt of the stock which would shear off if it was to be dropped sharply on the corner of the buttplate. I don't know if these are repairs of ones that have been broken, or if it is some sort of strengthening cut and reglue. They all appear to be about the same size wedge of wood - I have also seen this on the laminated stocks that wouldn't shear from dropping on the edge.
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3180
    (3/25/02 7:16:48 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m 44 and m 91/30 mosin nagant
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I have seen many of the "arsenal repaired" Russian toes, as well as many NOT repaired at the arsenal...and I have reglued some myself...I also have a SWEET Russian hardwood stock right now missing the toe completely, what a shame...trying to work up the nerve to try and make a piece for it myself....

    But I've seen other repairs as well. The next most common is in the very front, right behind the nose cap, usually on the right side...I've seen several with about a 1 1/2 to 2" replacement piece, done really well, even channelled to match the barrel channel. Have seen this on several 91/30s and 44s, in fact just the other day on a 44 stock, I had to re epoxy that piece in place, it fell off. GOOD fit, has to have been done at an arsenal, relief cut and everything. And like I said, have seen it on several of both models, seems like another uniform repair, don't know why, unless that is another weak area of the stock.

    The other I have seen, in fact had it on one of the first batch of "G" 91/30s I bought, that I sold before I knew what it was, (DARN) is the repair on the left side of the stock directly under the reciever. And yes it WAS a Tula, but I can't remember if it had any filled holes in the reciever under the repair. I don't think it did...but can't remember...

    If you have one of those SAVE it. The Soviets used an ungodly number of sniper rifles in WWII, issued them to whole units, but after the war converted most of them back to regular configuration. They welded the holes shut on the reciever, then reground before refinishing, then replaced the "cutout" on the stock where the scope mount was attached with a glued in piece. Now after rearsenaling, the ex sniper stock MIGHT end up on a "regular" 91/30, probably, in fact, usually did, but there is now a demand for those stocks from guys buiding snipers back up...first it WAS a sniper stock at one time, and the "correct" PU scopes and mounts are now available for $250-$295, I saw a bunch at the last show with full issue leather covers and accessories, so it is easy to just cut the repair back out to mount the scope..the actual ex-sniper rifles with the plugged holes are rarer, but also around. The Tulas are more in demand, although the Soviets also used Izhevsk 91/30s for snipers too....

    While "technically" this can be considered by some collectors as fraud, but only if represented as a "real" sniper, this is a "hot" thing for collectors to do, make one up for the collection, and some are available on the market now for around $500...even explained as "made up." 'Real" genuine unaltered snipers are hard to document, but if so would be worth $800-$1500....

    In fact, Lasher is in the middle of making one up right now, has the scope, and FINALLY tracked down an "Ex-snayperskaya" Tula complete with plugged holes to be redrilled/retapped, and the cutout repaired stock from Allegheney Arsenal...

    I am planning to start buying tons of 91/30s again, just to see if I can get lucky and find another "ex..." just to put away...


    And as an aside, leaving Nagants for a minute, ALL Arisakas have the toe glued on as a seperate piece, it allowed the Japs to use thinner wood for stocks, that is what is meant by a "Japanese 2-piece stock"...if you get into Arisakas, don't let a sheister collector try to convince you it's worth less if he's buying one from you because "the stock has been repaired..."

    Same thing with Finnish Mosin Nagant stocks, but they are finger joint joined in the middle, just in front of the reciever...they are SUPPOSED to be like that...
    "Don't hear him call you an @sshole, hear WHY he's calling you an @sshole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    ruffitt
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 786
    (3/26/02 2:56:48 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del
    ezSupporter
    Re: m 44 and m 91/30 mosin nagant
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    polihshoooter -

    Mike, can you help this guy out? pub34.ezboard.com/fthefirearmsenthusiastfrm3.showMessage?topicID=194.topic
    RuffItt




    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2057
    (3/26/02 8:23:30 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m 44 and m 91/30 mosin nagant
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I still don't understand why the laminated stocks would be cut and reglued at the toe - there is no way they would have sheared from impact because this is opposite the way the laminates run. Very strange.

    P.S. - finally watched "Enemy At The Gates" last night. Dang, I am going to hafta set up one of them sniper 91/30s!
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3195
    (3/26/02 11:01:27 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m 44 and m 91/30 mosin nagant
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Good flick, but definitely a Guy film even with the love scenes, my wife fell asleep while I was glued to it.

    Made me cry too...


















    When the guy dropped that SWEET looking LAMINATED 91/30 sniper in the rubble after he got blown away...WHY the hell did they drop a LAMINATED????

    I have never even SEEN a Laminated 91/30 stock except for that one!
    "Don't hear him call you an @sshole, hear WHY he's calling you an @sshole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1892
    (3/26/02 11:29:06 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m 44 and m 91/30 mosin nagant
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Youse guys obviously haven't applied logic and reasoning as to why those M-N stocks get banged up as they do.

    It happens when they use them to pry the tracks off those T-34s for repair.

    They don't call 'em Rooshin Pry Bars for nothin'!

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3198
    (3/26/02 12:26:31 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m 44 and m 91/30 mosin nagant
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hey X, Who's "THEY?"


    How come I have NEVER heard them called that by ANYONE except for you and your cronies???? HHHMMMM?















    Rumor has it inexperienced Russian Tankers used captured KAR98s for track adjustment....but they were too brittle for that too, shoulda known they would be, they were too brittle for COMBAT too....













    But then that was one other example of Russian equipment and soldiers being better than the Krauts.....














    At least drunk Russian tankers COULD and knew HOW to adjust tracks, Germans would have parked their smelly leaky German crap tanks and walked back...


    "Don't hear him call you an @sshole, hear WHY he's calling you an @sshole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    walter in florida
    Member
    Posts: 17
    (3/26/02 5:06:33 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m 44 and m 91/30 mosin nagant
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Let me quote from the book America's Premier Gunmaker Remington by K. D. Kirkland . " The most irritating of these inspectors was Cossack captain who became known as 'Alexander the Great.' His particlar worry was that the rifles might fire accidententally. He would take a gun (MN-91) off the assembly line, load and cock it and then bang the butt on the concrete floor with all his might. -------but as many as a dozen rifle stocks per day were cracked in this manner."
    May be this Captain also tought inspectort how to check out the 91-30 an 44s.

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3218
    (3/27/02 10:06:51 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m 44 and m 91/30 mosin nagant
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Walter, I HAVE that book somewhere, had it since I was a kid, and now I REMEMBER reading that line in it...


    Now where the hell is that book, gonna drive me crazy til I find it, I FORGOT it had that part on making the M91s...

    And if I remember right, doesn't it go on to say that the Remington workers got him to stop by filing the bolt stop on a rifle to be tested so when he slammed it it went off? Pretty sure it said after he put the round right past his head into the ceiling of the Remington plant he stopped doing that....


    Was it in the same book, or somewhere else, where I read that Czarist army field and company grade officers in WWI were assigned to the various arsenals as inspectors, before they were assigned to the front, and after they had inspected X amount of rifles, they were sent to the front WITH that batch of rifles and were assigned to the unit that got them, so if any were defective, he would pay the price either in battle with them, or by getting executed after it...
    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    pitsitter
    Member
    Posts: 8
    (3/28/02 6:32:10 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m 44 and m 91/30 mosin nagant
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hey Bob, I have always thought that the splice on the butt of these MNs was by design. It would allow the stock to be made from a much narrower "blank". Then the triangular piece added because the extra width needed only in that area.

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2072
    (3/28/02 1:55:31 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m 44 and m 91/30 mosin nagant
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Pitsitter - you may be right. It makes sense when you look at the rifle ---
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 418
    (3/28/02 5:54:27 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m 44 and m 91/30 mosin nagant
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Most o' them Rooshun Pry Bars wuz used to pry the commodes off'in the walls in Germany, so's they could be shipped back to Roosha as foot washers!

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3229
    (3/28/02 10:55:24 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m 44 and m 91/30 mosin nagant
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You know, Kdub, that is not THAT far from the truth...although I'm sure they used something to pry them off besides their rifles.....
    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    cointoss 2
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 558
    (3/29/02 12:51:11 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m 44 and m 91/30 mosin nagant
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Kdub went to visit my local FFL and he had me look at a 91/30 he had just sporterized for a fellow. All he could say is that it was the worlds ugliest rifle; I just had to ask him was it before or after he changed the stock, added a scope, bent the bolt, and changed the safety. Lol!
    cointoss2

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3232
    (3/29/02 10:39:15 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m 44 and m 91/30 mosin nagant
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, Ben

    I've seen some PRETTY MN sporters posted all over the web, I'll try to dig out some links or pics for you to see...usually done to M38s or M44s...don't know why anyone would cut up a 91/30 unless they shortened it in the process...they DO make slick handling little carbines...

    But just like any thing else, some of the chopjobs I've seen on Nagants DO suck....

    I really don't think that safety IS that bad, some mausers are just as clumsy to use, (of course my only direct comparison so far was with the Spanish 1916...)and once you get used to it it's not bad at all, and it IS pretty "positive..."

    And it's better than the Arisaka's....

    The only REAL issue with sporterizing is trying to mount a scope...no bridge in the back to mount a conventional mount.




    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    cointoss 2
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 564
    (3/31/02 1:01:57 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m 44 and m 91/30 mosin nagant
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Polishshooter, I am inclined to agree about the safety on the Arisaka, one of the reasons why the Japanese lost the war. Soldiers simply forgot how to disengage the safety after inactivity.
    cointoss2

    walter in florida
    Member
    Posts: 18
    (3/31/02 8:45:46 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: m 44 and m 91/30 mosin nagant
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Your right shooter. same book. They filed down the locking mechanism on a particular rifle until the trigger literally hung by a hair of steel. They maneuvered this specimun into Alexander's hands. When the Cossack slammed the butt into the floor, the rifle went off an pierced a four inch pipe above Alexander's head sending a stream of water under pressure , knocking him flat on his back!

    Other subject polishshooter I remember you needed some parts to complete some Ufixum MNs. Marstar Canada has bolts complete for MN91-16 (what a 16?) for 30.00 canadian.
Similar Threads
Forum Title Date
Curio & Relics Forum 1917 Remington Mosin Nagant 91/30 Jan 30, 2011
Curio & Relics Forum Buying a Mosin Nagant 91/30 sniper for my husband.... Mar 9, 2009
Curio & Relics Forum Questions about Mosin 91/30 or m44? Feb 4, 2009
Curio & Relics Forum Just bought a Mosin Nagant M91/30 Feb 1, 2009
Curio & Relics Forum Mosin 91/30 scope mount Jan 13, 2009