M1 Carbine - Why the dislike?

Discussion in 'General Military Arms & History Forum' started by ysacres, Mar 7, 2003.

  1. ysacres

    ysacres Well-Known Member

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    CaliCollector
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    (9/13/02 10:22:47 pm)
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    M1 Carbine- why the dislike?
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    first allow me to thank you all for your help/suggestions on picking a new battle rifle. my next question is why the disdain for the M1 Carbine?? i know the basics, it was never intended to be a primary front lines battle rifle, and the "official" explanaition for it was a substitute for a sidearm for those who needed one, the .30 carbine is puny, under powered, ect. , ammo availability can be an issue, stopping power.. the list goes on and on and on. i have known people who have taken deer with an M1 Carbine, not always one shot, but they hadnt lost one yet, so it has some power to it. if it was loaded with GOOD hollowpoints (if they are available, and according to the armorers at gunsite or was it thunder ranch?? either way they had advised me twords a carbine with hp's in the first place) where was i? ohh good hollow points or good handloads that have been bumped up a bit, to give the .30 carbine alittle more ummphfhff to it... ive been told, with no first hand experience, that it is a solid rifle, reliable, easy to operate (i know this last from handling experience in shops and at shows), light weight, compact, and inexpensive... still considering one for my wife, since the good ol AR isnt kalifornia legal for new purchase. PLEASE EDUCATE ME HERE, SO I CAN MAKE THE BEST DECISION I POSSIBLY CAN ARMED WITH ALL THE FACTS!!!!!! thanks in advance Ray in California...
    p.s. i have not thrown out the window the advice given to me in my last post, and wife doesnt dig the SKS, or the 10 round capacity, or trying to find good detachable mags for them, lets face it U.S.A. brand mags SUCK!!!!
    "Beware the man with only one gun, chances are he KNOWS how to use it."

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (9/13/02 11:10:48 pm)
    Reply Re: M1 Carbine- why the dislike?
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    Being in California puts limits on any type of rifle like this. I have always liked both SKS models, with a fondness for the "D" model. (Takes AK mags)

    I also have had a love hate relationship with the carbine.
    My Uncle has one, and it a fine shooting rifle, great for plinking.....don`t misunderstand.....I`m not going to stand in front of it. But I did see a hog absorb 25 shots under 30 yards and never slow down. This was in his yard at dusk, these were FMJ`s, and I doubt HP`s would have even broken skin.

    Easy to control, with little recoil. I have seen M2`s fired too. Very little muzzle climb.

    I get the mood to buy one, just to have one.....but that is the only reason and it wains fast. They are nice "plinkers"
    But ain`t cheap to shoot and ammo just ain`t there either.

    I still say the M1a and .308 is easy and cheap to come by.
    Reloadable and powerful.

    Remember, several companies tried to market pistols in this caliber for hunting, they all failed. Best LTS

    CaliCollector
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    (9/13/02 11:23:52 pm)
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    Re: M1 Carbine- why the dislike?
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    LTS... the SKS model D??? i never heard of them things.. i knew you could supposedly Modify your SKS to take an AK mag, but never knew they already made em that way..
    25 rounds at 30 yards and it didnt drop it?? jesus christ!!!!! know pigs are tough, but id have thought that 25 rounds would have beat it into submission, or least slowed it down.. thats a strong arguement, granted a feral hog is ALOT tougher than a man, but they are also a good test of whats effective and whats not.. point well taken... ok now unless i can be convinced otherwise i think the Carbine is regulated to plinking/training purposes... but that SKS model D... hmmmm gots me wondering if i can modify whatever SKS i can buy in Cali to take the model D parts, then of course remove them right away and put the fixed mag back in to be kalifornia legal.. and id never attempt to make a fixed mag SKS a detatchable inside Kali state lines.. nope not me. no breaking the law here, but it does make me wonder if it can be a drop in conversion for the worst case senario.. or TSHTF... any thoughts?? Ray in California
    "Beware the man with only one gun, chances are he KNOWS how to use it."

    polishshooter
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    (9/13/02 11:27:32 pm)
    Reply Re: M1 Carbine- why the dislike?
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    Actually, I don't dislike the carbine at all.

    I too know people that have used the Carbine for deer successfully...

    And it would be pretty handy for a woman or a child to hunt with, too.

    BUT just like in wartime, the user HAS to remember that no matter WHAT he does to the cartridge, the .30 Carbine IS and always WILL BE a PISTOL cartridge.

    You CANNOT expect it ever to be a "Rifle" cartridge no matter what you do to it.

    NOW. Having said that, how many deer are taken every year with PISTOL CARTRIDGES? Tons. And most of them from 6-8" barreled handguns! I see nothing wrong with taking a decent pistol round and shooting it from a light handy carbine. You WILL get more velocity from a 16-20" barrel than you ever will get from a 8" Blackhawk, along with a steadier hold from the shoulder than any Weaver or Isoceles grip, and a longer and better sight picture to boot!

    I remember as a teenager scratching my head reading gun rags that, even once in the same ISSUE, advised AGAINST using an M1 Carbine for deer, but then came out with a review of the (then) new Ruger Blackhawk in .30 Carbine and recommended it HIGHLY for Deer!

    I never figured out why hot loads in the 8" Ruger were better than the SAME loads in a carbine.

    And MANY people use the various Ruger, Marlin, Winchesters, and replicas etc in .44 mag, .357mag, .45 LC, .44-40, and the like, ALL pistol calibers, for deer, and nobody says a thing.

    I hunt now only in a Shotgun/Handgun only state for deer. I think if a guy kept his shots using the proper HPs or SPs, to only the ranges he's used to with a slug, or a handgun...or even maybe stretching it a little farther, the .30 carbine would be as good or better than the 12gu slug or any handgun.

    But again, somebody taking 150+ yd shots with one would be stupid. It is NOT a "rifle..." But then again guys with thutty-thutties are probably stretching it at not much more than that range too, but nobody bitches at them for it! The other no-no is thinking it's OK to stretch it, because you have another 14 rounds if it doesn't go down the first time...that's ANOTHER reason hunters don't like it. Use a five round mag, and only PLAN on taking one good shot that has the chance to deliver enough power, and they might accept it more.

    Most of the veterans who hate it, or hunters who hate it are guys who compare it to their experience with their Garand, or Springfield, in the service, or especially combat, or to their .30-06 or .308 they used for deer. The ones who compared it to their 1911A1, or Grease Gun, on the range or even in combat, or their Ruger deer carbine, or slug gun liked or even loved it.

    Buy it, understand it, don't ask it to do anything it can't do, but use properly what it CAN do, and you'll be fine for deer, IMO.
    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (9/14/02 12:08:50 am)
    Reply Re: M1 Carbine- why the dislike?
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    After lugging the heavy ol' M1 and the M3 grease gun around for a long time in Korea, when I got my hands on a M2 carbine I thought I'd died and gone to Heaven!!
    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"

    Tac401
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    (9/14/02 10:42:57 pm)
    Reply
    Re: M1 Carbine- why the dislike?
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    I've owned a few M-2 Registered Machineguns, and although
    they are fun and pretty accurate on semi, I still would feel
    more like I was firing a high powered 9mm carbine rather than a .30cal rifle.

    I would choose my firearms according to what my expected
    needs/wants would be, and readily available and commonly ammo and try to keep it as cost effective as possible.
    TFF VMBB Email Tac

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2927
    (9/15/02 9:23:37 am)
    Reply Re: M1 Carbine- why the dislike?
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    The M1 carbines are nice rifles, and I like firing them. I have traded a few in and out of my collection over the years. My main complaint right now is that the collector's market has driven the price of these through the roof!

    If I want to mess with a pistol caliber carbine, I get out one of my Destroyers in 9mm Largo.
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    CaliCollector
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    (9/15/02 7:05:23 pm)
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    Re: M1 Carbine- why the dislike?
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    Destroyers?? wracking my meager memory here... and coming up blank, ecxept for thinking its a bolt action rifle, or am i confusing it with the ww2 modified enfield that was rechambered for .45 acp and silenced for brit specops use??
    Ray in California
    "Beware the man with only one gun, chances are he KNOWS how to use it."

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2929
    (9/15/02 8:12:48 pm)
    Reply Re: M1 Carbine- why the dislike?
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    Destroyer carbines are a 9mm Largo bolt-action carbine with a detachable magazine. They were designed as a companion piece to the 9mm Largo pistols issued to the Spanish police and border guards. They used them for shooting the hairy little ponies out from under the nasty Basque Separatistas at distances in the mountains. The magazines are 7 round capacity, but there are ways to modify other magazines to have a higher capacity feed device.
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    17th FA Bn
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    (10/6/02 10:20:16 am)
    Reply M-1 carbine was great for what it was designed for
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    The M-1 carbine was a handy weapon for men such as mortar crew men. Mortar crews would already be lugging part of the mortar around, and as much mortar ammo as they could carry. They did not need the additional weight of the close to ten pound M-1 rifle, or sub-machine gun. And at any range except point blank you would have had a much better chance of hitting an enemy with carbine than with a sub-machine gun or hand gun.

    The Army in hindsight would have been better of giving the M-1 carbine a heavier, larger caliber bullet, with improved knock down power. I think if memory serves me right the M-1 carbine round was based on a .35 round necked down to .30. This gave a higher velocity, and range than the .35 but gave up kinetic energy at close range.

    The Army specs when they were designing the M-1 carbine were most concerned with weight and range of the round. The M-1 carbine succeed on both counts. It is a light very handy weapon, with good accuracy out to 300 yards. Unfortunately it has very little "umph" left at 300 yards. And even close in it is said to transmit little energy to a target due to its light (110 grain) bullet that zips right through a target.

    If the Army had stuck to a .35 bullet for the M-1 carbine they would have had a weapon that would have given up range for more close in stopping power. It would have been accurate out to maybe 200 yards and this would still have beaten the day lights out of a pistol, and been much farther than most combat ranges.

    jeeper1
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    (10/7/02 2:56:53 am)
    Reply Re: M-1 carbine was great for what it was designed for
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    I thought they were a rimless version of the 32-20.
    The Curio and Relic Firearms Forum
    To err is human. But to really screw things up you just about have to have a computer.
    A golf course is a sad misuse of a perfectly good rifle range.

    prezzzzz
    Member
    Posts: 26
    (10/25/02 9:54:27 am)
    Reply Re: M1 Carbine- why the dislike?
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    It's simple. For what the M1 Carbine was designed to do. It was very effective. Nothing more. Nothing less.

    I have one. For close in home defence. It's great. It's small. It's light. Easy to handle. Easy to carry. Multiple rounds. Little concern with over penetration.

    But, the Ruger Mini-14 is all these things and more.

    My $0.02 worth.

    17th FA Bn
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    (10/27/02 9:03:15 am)
    Reply Jeeper1 you are right
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    Jeeper1 you are right, the original round was a .32. I wonder what the ballistics were on the original .32 round?

    jeeper1
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    (10/28/02 1:36:46 am)
    Reply Re: Jeeper1 you are right
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    I expect that they were on par with the 30 carbine. That is to say too light to do much good. Although I really would like to have a 32-20. Despite the outragously high price for ammo.
  2. wglutman

    wglutman New Member

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    25 rounds?

    No offense intended, but to state that a pig could take 25 rounds of centerfire .30 caliber ammunition (of any caliber) is just plain silly. Either your uncle was missing a lot, or nicking him a lot, of your memory has faded. That is just not plausible. I really tire of seeing the .30 carbine round compared to the .22 or see people advocate that it's only good for shooting squirrels and rabbits. And I also tire of seeing the M1911 .45 ACP on the cover of every issue of Guns and Ammo. Good god! Get over it people. That gun truly isn't the be all, end all of handgun technology. I personally think its operating system (locked and cocked) is horribly outdated. OK, I'm done now. LOL
  3. Xracer

    Xracer *TFF Admin Staff Mediator*

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    Hi wglutman......welcome to TFF! And especially, welcome to the Military Arms & History Forum.

    Please don't get turned off by the postings here in MA&H.....we're just a contrary bunch of SOB's. Check on a bunch of our back topics........nobody ever agrees with anybody on anything! That's what makes it so much fun! :D

    Ask a question, and you'll get 10 replys offering 15 different opinions! And everybody's an expert on everything! And, of course, they're all wrong except for ME!


    Don't worry.....you'll get used to it......just jump in, feet first, and enjoy yourself! :D
  4. barnetmill

    barnetmill New Member

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    I seem to remember that there was either a .32 or .30 cartridge that was chambered in some of the early winchester autorifles. It was rimless and straight walled. I do not know what the load was. These early autorifles went from about .32 to .40 caliber. They were popular with police and prison guards.

    A .30 carbine round will out penetrate most of the older pistol cartridges. So in in reference to home defense it will readily go through walls.

    Mine (NRA purchased in about 1963) upon heating changes its point of impact.

    With hollow pts it should be comparable in effect to a 110 grain bullet fired in a .357 carbine. I do know that deer hunters use it in the south.
  5. warlord

    warlord New Member

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    Why the dislike? Well, it's not a true rifle. The .30carbine round is just an upgunned pistol cartridge.
  6. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    The general idea was to give a butter bar a pistol he could hit with, but one that did not weigh a ton.
    The M-1 carbine shoots a pistoll class cartridge, with nearly rifle weight. A .357 Revolver is a better stopper, inside 50 yards, and there exist a plethora of better, lighter choices , than the carbine; ask Clint Eastwood!
    Even then, the military was weak on marksmanship training, save for a few, and the carbine was a (poor) attempt to circumvent that training fault, IMHO.
  7. Quicksilver GT

    Quicksilver GT New Member

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    I'm probably just repeating things you've already heard before, but the gun got its bad reputation in Korea, so I heard. Reportedly, North Korean and ChiCom troops, in winter, wore these heavily padded, quilted coats that just soaked up M-1 Carbine rounds.

    If this is true -- any Korean vets on here who know? -- then you can understand that returning GIs would have acquired a powerful dislike of the gun. I mean, you're lucky to get in one hit; imagine pumping several into an oncoming guy. That gets you back to the Moros in the Phillipines soaking up hits from .38 not Specials.
  8. Deputy Dawg

    Deputy Dawg Active Member

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    I thought Clint Eastwood ,used a smith&wesson model 29, 44 magnum?
  9. yoric

    yoric Former Guest

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    Oh, man, what a crock. A 30 Carbine with good hollowpoints would take a hog easily, with one well place shot in the ribs. If you have enough smarts to avoid the shoulder bones, and not take 1/4 angle shots, the 223 Softpoint works fine on hogs, too. The 30C was favored for combat over the Garand by many a very experienced battle vet.

    The Moros were not stopped by .45 Colt revolver rds, either, you know. In fact, 6mm Lee and 30-40 Krag rds didn't stop some of them. The 1911 .45 was never used against the Moros. The Phillipine Insurrection ended in 1912, before the 1911 saw any combat at all. That's just an old wive's tale.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2005
  10. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    One of the plethora of smaller, lighter choices, in this case, with more horsepower, to boot; but, Yes, he did!
  11. The .30 Carbine, as a military weapon, never truly lived up to its expectations, though in the hands of a superior marksman it worked adequately enough. Audie Murphy often carried one, for example, and I doubt anyone would discount the ability he had with anything that shoots. I've always had ambivalent feelings about the round myself. It is underpowered for many combat situations, but the Carbine is light, handy, simple to operate. At least it doesn't have a tendency to bite your thumb when loading it, which the M-1 Garand sure as hell does if you're not damn careful ;) .

    --Pistolenschutze
  12. ValleyBoy

    ValleyBoy New Member

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    Re: 25 rounds?

    The 1911 is about as outdated as an airplane. It is not the bee all end all, yet it's place as obselete is extremely questionable.
  13. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Valley Boy, I think I'm gonna like you! Welcome to our wierd world!
    The 1911 is not outdated, by any means, simply more pistol than most agencies can or will train for. It requires the operator to actually think, on occasion, to safely operate it; or a hundred more hours, on the range, so muscles do the thinking. "There's no room in the budget", justifies lesser goods, to guys at risk. That it is a still very desirable arm, approaching 100 years old, in design, to so many shooters, ought to say a bit!
    Let me emphasise the word "shooters"; most cops are NOT. They carry their issued weapon, qualify, as they must, and hope the next issue weapon is lighter, smarter, and requires less firing to qualify- it's just another accessory they must carry, daily, on their belt; OSHA categorizes it as "Safety Equipment".
    The M-1 carbine, out to 100 yards, will not put a combatant down as fast as the 1911, in good hands,and will not engage a second target, as rapidly.
    For mortar crews, and such, the carbine was the Government's way of appologising for inadequate training, on the range ("In good hands")
    It was, and is, a 'stop gap' measure to compensate for insufficient marksmanship training, and a poor one, at that.
    A pistol is a device to allow the possessor to fight his way to a real weapon; the rifle: the carbine is neither.
    As an aside to another poster, I've killed enough pigs, deer, and cattle, with a .22 LR, to know placement, not power, is the issue!
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2006
  14. I must agree, Stash. The pistol is, and has always been, at best a close range, last ditch weapon. Even the most powerful pistol or revolver pales in compariason to even a moderately powerful rifle. I also agree that rifle training--with the possible exception of the Marine Corps--is not emphasized nearly as much as it should be. I remember my own basic training and AIT many years ago and I know that it was not the Army that taught me to shoot, it was my Dad many years before that--training that kept me alive on many occasions later. I carried a .45 1911 for nearly a year in VN, and yes, used it on a few occasions and it saved my butt. Yet I never, ever, considered it my primary weapon. Nor, I might add, did I consider the full-auto setting on my M-16 to be of much use except maybe for suppression fire, and even then I tended to use semi-auto fire instead. The M-1 carbine is, in many ways, a slick, fun weapon to shoot--at tin cans or crows, but as a military arm, it leaves a hell of a lot to be desired.
  15. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    Don't discount the 30 rounds to the hog post, LTS is a lot of things, but a boaster or exaggerator he ain't! :cool:

    Besides, Canfield has a good story that's documented of a US Army Sergeant in WWII going a little ways down a path to "do his business" and gets charged by a "husky" Jap with a bayonet on an Arisaka from like 30 yards down the same little canyon and it took him nine shots to the chest before the Jap died at his feet. It says the good Sergeant then lost all faith in the ability of the carbine to put down a hostile...

    And with all that gristle, I'd think a good sized hog would be TOUGHER than any Japanese. (Which is why LTS uses his .45-70 'Guide Gun" for Hogs!)

    Remember also that the .30-40 Krag was not a reliable stopper on a charging Moro in the Philippines, much less the .38 Colt Revolver, so they started issueing Model 97s in 12 guage along with SAA Armys in .45 LC BP....I read accounts that unless you could guarantee a head shot, chest shots would not stop a charging Moro, and many soldiers died learning that...


    ,,,which brings me to the other point....WHY are you grabbing a Carbine OR a Mini-14 when things go bump in the night INSTEAD of a good short 12 guage loaded with BIRDSHOT????? :eek: Like maybe a '97? :) :cool:
  16. inplanotx

    inplanotx New Member

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    Jup! They did teach some of us to shoot, however, I learned to shoot as a youngun and didn't need to be taught! Just knocked their socks off and dazzled them with hits. My first day at the range in boot camp, my firing instructor at 200 meters prone rapid fire watched me shoot. When I got done with all ten rounds, he told me, observing how I shot, that I did not hit the target. To his dismay, all rounds grouped into six inches. He never opened his mouth again! :D :D :D

    Oh, yea, it was an M14! :D :D
  17. Just curious, Polish, why birdshot necessarily? Yes, I know it will work quite well at close range, but unless one lives in an apartment house, I think #4 buck, or very heavy birdshot works better. Anyway, that's what I load in mine.
  18. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    Why Birdshot!

    1) NOTHING more effective at close range. Birdshot acts as a FLUID, an amorphus blob that spreads about 1" per yard. At ten feet, you will have a 2" blob of 1 1/2 oz of LEAD that will transfer ALL the energy into the target with NO penetration. Plus, any emergency room trauma surgeon wil tell you there is NO wound worse from pure tissue destruction than a short range hit from birdshot.

    2) Penetration- or LACK thereof....MANY experiments, some that I'VE done, PROVE that a load of Bird will NOT penetrate BOTH sides of a sheetrock wall. The FIRST side will have a ragged hole, but all the energy and the dispersion causes ALL the pellets to be stooped by the INNER wall....ANY pistol round, buckshot, will penetrate the wall with enough energy to kill YOUR kid in the next room. A RIFLE round can kill your neighbor in HIS house....

    3.) The AFTERMATH (which any THINKING man HAS to consider!)....when you are explaining it to the Police, much less a judge or jury...which argument would you rather be "explaining..." a. "Yes in fact I AM paranoid so I sleep with a AK47 next to my bed with a loaded 30 round magazine at ALL times...." (insert Mini-14, even a Glock with a 15 rounder, etc, etc, etc.) or b. All I had at the time was my hunting shotgun and BIRDSHOT, it happened so fast....


    Yes, I have my "Deer gun" which happens to be a Winchester 1897 RIOT gun, next to my bed with a 5 round sleeve on the stock. The first 3 rounds are #6 Remingtons, the 4th is OOB, the fifth is a slug. The slug goes in FIRST, then the 00B, then the three birds, so they come out FIRST....even though I TRULY hope the "legendary" "Slack-Slack" from me racking it will make ANY moron in the house that shouldn't be there either freeze, or run....
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2006
  19. I won't quibble with you much on your reasoning, Polish. The birdshot load (say, 7 1/2s or 8s) will definitely get the job done at across the room distances. I like the #4 buck better mostly because it does give me a bit of additional effective range should the situation require it, while not creating much chance of overpenetration through walls. I load my scattergun with two slugs at the bottom, then two 00, then three #4 buck, thus the #4 chambers first.
  20. rangerruck

    rangerruck New Member

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    anything else in the same short bbl rang eis better, anything.
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