The Firearms Forum banner

M1 Garand Site Adj. issues.

4K views 18 replies 7 participants last post by  RetiredGunny 
#1 ·
I have a question/problem with sighting in my Garand. It groups very tight...1inch groups, but I seem to be shooting 3 inches low at 25 yards. I do mean straight below center, 3 inches. Site is set at 3...(300 yards?).

I'm shooting sitting at rest on standbags using Korean ammo(150 gr I think)

I am doing the same things I was taught in the service...breathing, squeeze, sight picture...except with out the push-ups for screwing up...:D

I don't have this problem with my Enfield or Nagant.

I know about jouster, but I hate trying to navigate it.

Any ideas?
 
#3 · (Edited)
mikaldulee:

The sights on the Garand are funky. The first version had problems staying tight and holding their position. Later ones were better. I believe there were like three or more varieties. The book I have talks about the ones that were current in 1948 (who knows how much earlier?). But the trick is you move the elevation until the group center is in the center of the aiming point disregarding the numbers on the sight. There is a screw in the center you then loosen and move the range scale of the knob to the shooting range for your target and the sights are then calibrated.

Who knows how the last shooter had the Garand calibrated for the sights so just go through the calibration and you are good to go. The problem is which sights you happen to have. I don't know if the earlier ones worked the same way but I think they did. Some had a locking nut, some didn't. Once you get the grouping to match the sight picture then lower the rear sight and count the clicks to get to the lowest position for the height of the rear peep. Write that down in case the sight every gets uncalibrated by it slipping or someone changing it. The number of clicks up will not change for the same ammo.

LDBennett
 
#4 ·
Yes, there is a locking screw on the left side of the rear sight. When I got it, the rear sight was raised and loose. I reset it as the re-assembly guide described, but I assumed that battle sight zero would be 300 yards...I lowered it then raised it to 300yards and tightened it.

What you are saying makes sense. I'll give that a try.

Thank you.:)
 
#10 ·
Ok, just finished...I found nothing wrong. I searched the web and finally found this from the AGARMS site.

Sight adjustment:
a) Iron sights (M1 rifle): The rear sight can be adjusted to correct for a wind that is strong enough to blow a bullet off its course, or simply to change the strike of thebullet to another spot on the target. The strike of the bullet can be made higher or lower (elevation) or can be moved to the right or to the left (windage). The elevation and windage knobs make audible clicks when they are turned, and each dick changes the strike of the bullet approximately one inch on the target for every 100 yards of range. For example, 2 clicks of either elevation or windage will move the strike of the bullet approximately four inches on a target at a range of 200 yards. Windage can be adjusted 16 clicks to the right or to the left of center index, and elevation can be adjusted from 0 to 72 clicks.

(b) Zero and Battle-Sight for M1: Every rifle has certain characteristics that make the individual piece fire a little high, a little low, a little to the right or the left. To be able to get consistent hits, the rear sight must be zeroed for the various ranges, and the sight setting recorded. The data for the rifie's zero is easily kept in the accessory compartment of the stock for ready reference. To move the mean point of impact up, raise the rear sight. To move the mean point of impact to the right, move the sight to the right, and so on. Several rounds should be fired from a bench or sandbag rest from various ranges to find and confirm the zero settings. The battle sight setting is the 300-yard zero, less two clicks. When two clicks are subtracted from the zero elevation, it causes the rifle to be zeroed in at the point of aim. In other words, the location of the shot group is moved from the center of the bull'seye to the lower edge. With this sight setting, a rifleman can hit his point of aim at 300 yards and can engage man-sized targets at ranges from 0-400 yards by aiming at the center of the mass.

(i) To calibrate the rear sight to the battle sight setting you:
-run the aperture all the way down and loosen the screw in the center of the elevating knob until you can turn the knob forward.
-turn the elevating knob forward until the 300yard index line is opposite the index line on the re ce iver.
-turn the elevating knob forward from this point the number of clicks equal to the 300-yard zero in elevation, less two clicks.
-hold the elevating knob in position with your left hand and tighten the center screw, then run the aperture all the way up and tighten the screw. Check your setting by turning the elevating knob back until the 300-yard index line is opposite the index line on the receiver, then turn it as far forward as you can, counting the clicks. The number of clicks you can turn the elevating knob forward should be equal to your battle sight setting.
(ii) To set the battle sight on the older type sight (with locking nut) you:
-set the 300-yaxd zero in elevation less two clicks. Lock the rear sight at this point by tightening the locking nut.
-loosen the screw in the center of the elevating knob and turn the knob until the battle sight index line is opposite the index line on the receiver.
-tighten the screw in the center of the elevating knob. Check the setting as described in (i) above.
(iii) When the rear sight has been calibrated to the battle sight zero, the range indicators on the elevating knob may be used. If the rifleman has time in combat, he can set the estimated range to a taxget on the rear sight and deliver more accurate fire. This is particularly advantageous when engaging targets at ranges over 300 y
Back to the range...:D
 
#11 ·
mikaldulee:

I am not understanding your problem?

You shoot for group, then elevate the rear sight to move the group to the center of the target. Shoot for group again and again until the center of the group is centered on the target you are aiming at. Lower the sight while counting the clicks to fully bottomed. Write that number down or remember it. Move the sight up that number of click from bottoming and adjust the indication of range on the sight knob (loosening it and setting it at the range and then tightening the locking mechanism) to match the range you are shooting at. Verify, when you move the sight up from fully bottomed the number of clicks you wrote down, that the sight knob reads the range you are shooting at.

Forget battle sight adjustments ranges, etc. Make the sight range number, when the gun shoots at the target center, match the shooting range. Simple.

I know you can get there as you say the gun is shooting low. Up on the sights will move the group up. Its just the numbers that don't match right now and you do that by changing the knob so it matches the range when you have the gun sighted in for your range, without moving the sight up or down.

All that battle sight adjustment stuff is for use when the ammo is the issued ammo that the Army always uses. You are using unknown ammo so you have to adjust the sight to match the ammo.

LDBennett
 
#12 · (Edited)
OK, I guess this has been confusing. Sorry for that.

The ammo is Korean...packed in Garand clips. It is designed for the M1 (147 gr I believe). It is milsurp...Korean milsurp.

300(or 266) yards is battle sight. Zeroing is done at 25yards.

Now when I worked with the M16, we adjusted our zero(25 meters) till we hit center mass with a 1 inch group. This also equated to center mass at 300 yards. But the rear sight mark stayed at 300, we adjusted the front sight for elevation. You can't do that with the M1.

Thank you, the way you just explained it...clicked.

Sorry if I seem a bit daffy, this system is a bit different than what I am used to.

When the weather permits, I'll try it.
 
#13 ·
mikaldulee:

When the military trains you they teach you how NOT to think. You are only suppose to do it their way. Their way works for them and is not necessarily wrong but there happens to be more than one way to skin a cat, even though the military will never admit that. I can understand why you were confused. The military training stepped up and shut out thinking. I suppose when the military asks you to do something you normally might not do (like charge a hill under gunfire) they don't want you to think, just do it. Same for gun training. No thinking allowed. Just do it the military way. That's the only way it can work on thousands of individuals some of whom have never seen a gun before let alone had to zero it.

The general public way is the way I described. It works too and with some thought you can see why.

Good luck. I think you got it now.

LDBennett
 
#14 ·
Well I tried it out today...

THANK YOU!!!!! LDBennett

It worked. 11 clicks up, 3 right...no center left in the target. Thank you for your patience and very clear explantion. You cannot imagine how long I have struggled with this. I shot over 100 rounds trying to get this rifle zeroed...With your help, I did it in 12 rounds. Thank you again.

I would also like to thank Trap55...Thats a great site you linked to. Thank you sir.
 
#17 ·
mik..........check out this link: http://www.surplusrifle.com/garand/rsdisassembly/index.asp

Those numbers on the elevation knob are great reference points and that's about all. My Garand is correct at 12 clicks of elevation at 100yds. Of course it goes up from there and I simply count the clicks of elevation that I need at any given yard line. It was how we did it as young Marines qualifying with this rifle in 1960 and it still works for me today.....semper fi and good luck..........tog
 
#18 ·
Hey Mike....

Welcome to the forum.

What's new on the old forum...?

You been a member since Aug. last year and only 23 posts.

I'm here all the time....:D

Al
 
#19 ·
Battle sights for the M-1 Garand is 250 yards, as it is for all modern U.S. service rifles.

To find your battle sights you need to set up a target at 1000 inches or 83.33 feet. Your target will need to be a square of any size but center aim point of the target area needs to 8 inches or so in heightn and width and ruled with 1 inch squares. The strike of the bullet at 1000 inches is the same at 250 yards. Take your 100 yard dope (data) and put it on the rifle and then fire a single round and adjust it onto the center of the target. Write this data down and keep it secure for future reference.

When using battle sights with the standard M-1 sights (Not National Match) one click of elevation is equal to 1 minute of elevation at 100 yards and equals 1 inch movement on the target, 1 minute of elevation at 200 yards equals 2 inches on the target, and 1 minute of elevation at 300 yards equals 3 inches and so forth to 500 yards. When firing with this data you must either hold over the intended point of impact or hold under. Remember this data is intended for a human target which is about 18 inches wide (chest width) and center of mass chest high or from the chin to bottom of rib cage. But as you can see, if you are on at 250 yards your bullet's impact should within the 18 inch square at 300 yards or 100 yards, by shooting center of mass on the target.

If anyone else can add to this please feel free to do so. My M-1 data for 100 yards or meters is 15 up and 3 left windage. M-1A (7.62 mm or .308) data will be the same as the M-1 Garand. Although I trained with the M-1, M-14 anbd the M-16 during my careerand fired for record with two of them, there have been numberous changes to the M-16 sights and I don't feel won't venture into explaining adjustments when you can raise and lower both front and rear sights.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top