m1 garand

Discussion in 'Curio & Relics Forum' started by cointoss2, Mar 4, 2003.

  1. cointoss2

    cointoss2 Guest

    ckling
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    (12/18/02 11:53:03 pm)
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    Just checking to see if a m1 garand with a serial number indicating manufacture in 4 of 1943 qualifies as a C&R. The serial number is on the receiver.

    1952Sniper
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    (12/19/02 8:57:53 am)
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    In short, yes. Any firearm over 50 years of age is considered C&R eligible.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    TallTLynn
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (12/19/02 9:19:30 am)
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    ezSupporter
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    Actually Sniper I don't think that is totally correct about "any" firearm over 50 years old being C&R eligible. But the M1 Garand is definitely.


    Bob In St Louis
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    (12/19/02 9:31:46 am)
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    Oh boy - here we go again!

    There is a lot of different interpretations of what is C&R eligible, but I would definately say your Garand is eligible.

    1952Sniper
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    (12/19/02 9:39:18 am)
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    Mmmmm, I don't want to start a big debate, but here's what the BATF says:


    Quote:
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    "Curios or relics" is defined in 27 CFR ยง 178.11, as follows:

    Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

    (a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

    (b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

    (c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
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    As for the Garand, here's what the BATF list says: U.S., Rifle, cal. .30 M1, original military issue only, produced prior to 1956.

    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (12/19/02 9:55:48 am)
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    Here is the rub: "To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories"

    Some folks read this as a qualification to be eligible for determination by ATF as to C&R status. If an item meets one out of these three criteria, the data can be submitted to ATF for determination.

    Other folks read it as a blanket identification of C&R status.

    Now I am of the later philosophy, because nowhere in the regs does it say the item needs to be submitted to ATF for determination if you can substantiate one of the three conditions.

    The real crux of the confusion falls back into the regional ATF offices - some regional ATF agents are telling folks that every item needs a determination and is only a C&R if it is specifically listed by ATF as such. I have noticed this is more prevalent in the northeast US, and particularly out of Pennsylvania. Other regions are saying you only need to document 50 years + age - and I have seen ATF letters out of Atlanta and Dallas stating this.

    Go figure. Anyway, if you are uncertain, check with your local ATF - because they are the guys that will be making the inspection of your records if you are licensed.

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (12/19/02 9:59:59 am)
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    Hi ckling.......Welcome to TFF.

    Guess you've got your answer. I hope you enjoy shooting that baby!

    1952Sniper
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    (12/19/02 10:42:22 am)
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    Interesting theory. I still disagree. I'm a relatively new 03 FFL (C&R) holder, but have always been under the impression that 50+ was an automatic C&R firearm. In fact, that is the general rule of thumb in C&R circles. Over 50 = relic. On the BATF list = curio. There are some firearms on the list that are over 50, but the BATF leaves them there for posterity (else the people will think its C&R status has been revoked).

    I'm going to do some research on this and see if I can find an "official" word from the BATF that will settle it once and for all.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (12/19/02 10:57:15 am)
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    Good luck. I totally agree with your view - but like I said, it boils down to what your local ATF agent decides. You can disagree with their view point as much as you want, but they are the ones "interpreting" the regs.

    I have had several cases out of Pennsylvania of quite documentable WWI vintage pistols (Rubys), but they were not specifically listed; these dealers in Pennsylvania stated that they could not ship them as C&R unless they were specifically listed as C&R by the ATF. I went around and around with them, and they said that was what the ATF in their region specifically told them, and these guys seemed to be deathly afraid. I will lay dollars to donuts this was a "Miami Vice" style ATF agent in that region that was laying down his interpretations when he inspected these guys.

    1952Sniper
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    (12/19/02 11:12:26 am)
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    I think it's safe to say that "the law" is not open to interpretation by field agents on a case-by-case basis. At least, not when the lawyers get a hold of it. If the BATF has released anything in writing about it, then it should stand up in court as the official BATF policy. I don't care what the agent says; it's what he puts in writing that matters.

    I don't know about you, but I'm getting pretty darn sick and tired of having to "interpret" the law on gun-related issues. Why can't the legislators and policy-writers say what they mean and mean what they say? I think they do it on purpose, to leave loopholes and/or legal pitfalls for Joe Citizen.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    Ballistic
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    (12/19/02 12:25:12 pm)
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    what about a new springfield M1 the ones that you can order today from their website, are they a C&R?

    don

    1952Sniper
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    (12/19/02 12:55:17 pm)
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    Nope.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    Ballistic
    V.I.P. Member
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    (12/19/02 1:30:33 pm)
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    damn, oh well i think im still gunna get one they look nice...

    1952Sniper
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    (12/19/02 2:08:41 pm)
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    Ballistic, since you're not an 03 FFL, it really doesn't matter if it's C&R or not. If you like it, get it.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    ckling
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    (12/19/02 2:54:55 pm)
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    Hey guys, I did not mean to open Pandora's box....I did make a copy of the letter from ATF at cruffler.com and sent copies of the serial number list and the curio and relic list to the seller. Hope that convinces the FFL to send the garand. I worry though as it is to come from Phila. Will keep you posted.

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (12/19/02 3:09:39 pm)
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    Good luck - if the seller was balking regarding the C&R status, and he is in Pennsylvania, - well, like I said, I have experienced it before from that region, and it hinges on what the local ATF is telling licensees in that area.

    It don't matter what we know, and try to tell them till we are blue in the face, when someone is in fear of loosing their license because of what the ATF agent tells them, they will need to do whatever is mandated to be in compliance.

    If the local agent is telling you all the records need to be printed in 4" high letters on lace doillies, by God, get yer butt to Wally World, and buy a ruler and all the lace doillies you can find!

    If they have the time, money, and legal resources to take it to court, more power to them - but frankly, going up against a federal agency in a legal battle is a long, tedious, and expensive proposition - and the feds know this! Not many folks will have the resources to pursue this. Therefore, living within the dictated system is the other option.

    I don't know about you, but I frankly never want to be in a position of standing there handcuffed and watching a lot of guys in black jackets with "ATF" on the back hauling off my collection!

    Edited by: Bob In St Louis at: 12/19/02 3:35:19 pm

    1952Sniper
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    (12/19/02 4:10:54 pm)
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    Heh, with the size of your collection, they'd need a VERY LARGE truck and a lot of agents!

    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (12/19/02 4:38:17 pm)
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    Don't get me wrong - I don't support such localized misinterpretation of regs., and I am in support of various political organizations that are for 2nd Amendment Rights. However, direct confrontation with the Feds in situations like this will only land you in hot water. You need to work from within the system, and not contrary to it.

    1952Sniper
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    (12/19/02 4:51:31 pm)
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    Exactly. And that's why I want to find some supporting documentation written by the BATF that would support the theory that 50+ is C&R, regardless of the list. In the meantime, though, I'm not buying anything on my C&R FFL that isn't on the list. I don't wanna land in jail either, especially over something stupid like that.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    1952Sniper
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    (12/19/02 8:50:26 pm)
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    See my other post in this forum for the answer to the 50-year rule....
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3460
    (12/19/02 8:58:42 pm)
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    That's fine and dandy, and like I said, I already have several copies of these letters (from Atlanta and from Dallas) but it still don't mean jack to the local ATF office that is hell-bent to enforce what they see as fit. I faxed copies of these letters to those folks in Pennsylvania, and they said when they enquired with their local ATF, they were told that the letters were not applicable unless issued by the office of their enforcement region, and their region did not see it that way.
    1952Sniper
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    (12/19/02 9:18:53 pm)
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    So, in other words, the BATF is not a single agency, but a collection of smaller, independent agencies?????????

    I understand your point; and I know there's nothing you or I can say or do that's going to change how it works in "the real world". But if I were confronted by a local BATF agent who was telling me my rifle wasn't C&R, I would have to press the issue.

    I would specifically ask him to show me in the BATF regs where it says a local field agent can "interpret" the law his own way, and supercede what the Chief says, or what the BATF written policy is.

    Most likely I would be saying this as they slap the cuffs on me. Maybe I'd better go ahead and give this to my lawyer, for future reference.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3462
    (12/19/02 9:48:05 pm)
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    It seems that every regional ATF office operates differently. A lot of it is a reflection of the region, and various state restrictions within the region.

    At the time of an inspection, I would show them the books and inventories, be polite and say yes sir and no sir, have a witness present, and take careful notes as to everything they say. If they are saying anything that seems contrary to the regs., get a lawyer and start proceedings. Never confront a field agent! Jeez - it can only go downhill from there ---

    Edited by: Bob In St Louis at: 12/19/02 9:51:54 pm


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