m38 turkish mausers

Discussion in 'Curio & Relics Forum' started by cointoss2, Mar 4, 2003.

  1. cointoss2

    cointoss2 Guest

    runabout199
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    (3/31/02 10:57:47 am)
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    i am thinking about buying like 20 of these they are only 39.99 and the ones that i have got and seen from my dad and friends they fix up really nice. i took mine when i was done with it to a pawn shop and the guy offered me 100 bucks for it . so a little time and 39 and i could hane made 60$'s profit. not bad huh ? what do you think? i am fixing to get a digital camera so i can share my guns with you all.


    p.s. i have just finished my m44 mosin nagant and it is awsome . i purchased a polish one arsenel refinished and it is sweet indeed.
    semper fi

    Bob In St Louis
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    (3/31/02 11:46:56 am)
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    I have redone about a dozen of these Turkish Mausers now - they are good money makers. However, I would suggest paying the $10 extra per rifle and getting the handpicked - they have excellent blueing, and the stocks are a lot less dinged up. I usually tear them down, clean all the metal parts (normally just minimal spot reblueing for the handpicked - nonhandpicked may require full reblueing) and sand down the stocks, boiled linseed oil treatment, and final polish with OO steel wool. Voila - $49 rifles sell for $109 at gunshows.

    Some of these Turks have beautiful walnut in the stocks - I have had several of them with fiddle-back pattern walnut like what you would find on a high grade rifle - purty stuff!
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    the real fredneck
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    (3/31/02 1:09:00 pm)
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    runabout
    was your Polish M-44 arsenal refinished in Indiana?

    whitebear74
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    (4/8/02 11:38:07 pm)
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    Iffin' you're buying them with a C&R FFl the fellas at the ATF might not look too kindly on your endeavor. Sounds to me like you'd be a "dealer " according to the ATF regs.

    TallTLynn
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    (4/8/02 11:52:55 pm)
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    ezSupporter
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    Welcome whitebear to our forum.

    Now in regards to the gentleman purchashing 20 or so Turkish Mausers. Even if he has a C&R license if he is purchasing guns to sell it's all right as long as he is enhancing his collection.

    At least that is how I understand the rules.

    whitebear74
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    (4/9/02 3:37:05 pm)
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    ATF P 5300.11(3-2001) " if a collector acquires curios or relics for a purpose of sale rather than to enhance a collection, the collector would have to be licensed as a dealer in firearms under the GCA." It sure sounds to me that his intent is "sale" rather than "to enhance a collection" in light of his mention of making a quick $60 profit.



    Bob In St Louis
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    (4/9/02 8:31:22 pm)
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    I have a C&R license, and what I do is normally order C&R deals in five lots - you get a reduced price per item, pick out the best one or two for your collection, then sell or trade the rest - with the intent that any sales of these items is for revenue to be turned back into the collection. I am always rebuilding and refinishing Mosin Nagants, Enfields, and Mausers, selling them at gun shows, then turning the profit from those sales into the purchase of Spanish handguns - my most focused collecting interest. I am not using my C&R as a business for profit - only for the further enhancement of my collection. As I read the regulations, I am well within the scope of the law.
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (4/9/02 9:00:35 pm)
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    You got that right Bob. I bet if I were to find a rare gem in a big lot of rifles (marked sniper grade) Mauser or swede and I got it for a song. You can bet it will get full retail, for my next giant buy.....talk about enhance the collection. DANG RIGHT! doesn`t say you can`t make some bucks, as long as you put it back in the collection. This is not hard to understand. LTS
    T.F.F.

    the real fredneck
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    (4/9/02 9:18:42 pm)
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    does the "collection" have to be guns or can it be small pieces of green paper with pictures of historically significant deceased white guys on them?

    whitebear74
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    (4/9/02 9:40:50 pm)
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    Any of you "big lots" boys been inspected by the ATF yet?
    Shtt like that is what's gonna ruin the C&R FFL . Read the regs a little closer. It doesn't say you can't make a profit from selling stuff from your collection, it says you can't buy curios or relics for the purpose sale rather than to enhance a collection. It says; the sole intent of the collectors license is to enable a firearms collector to obtain curio and relic firearms from outside his or her state of residence.
    Buying a dozen c&r's at a time and putting them up for sale to make money to buy more c&r's is not the intent of the law as I read it.
    That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

    ps- I emailed the ATF Licensing Div. in Atlanta for a clarification. They should know what their regs mean, but on the other hand..... they can't spell MANURHIN either

    Edited by: whitebear74 at: 4/10/02 12:37:43 am

    Moskovskyya
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    (4/10/02 2:31:29 pm)
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    You hear a lot of different things about this subject that folks add to / read into the reg's as they are written. Some of my favorites are, "you should keep them for 6 month before disposition", or "buying 5 at a time will focus attention on you"! I have bought multiple specimens on many occasions in the interest of more volume to look at in the hopes of finding some keepers. I have never seen anything in the regulations that even remotely places a limit on the number or how long it takes to look at a piece to see if its what you're looking for to enhance your collection. Further, where in the regs does it say that you can't make a profit? It says an 03 can't enguage in business for a purpose of livelyhood. An 01 being a business may or may not make a profit, an 03 who disposes of collectables that he does not need, may or may not make a profit, but the profit thing has nothing to do either way with either of these licenses.

    Consider this, I you have a house full of guns, which many of you do, it would be blatently obvious to anyone with eyes that you are a collector. If you had purchased a thousand, and have the best 200 displayed, you'd be a "serious" collector, having disposed of the not needed / duplicate weapons.

    How could anyone prove / disprove, your intent when you purchase C&R weapons?

    One thing I can think of is, that if you had purchased the aforementioned thousand C&R's and you didn't have any of them left on hand, you might be / probably are involved in an attempt at livelyhood through gun running. Or, you might have disposed of all you collection intending on changing to a cheaper hobby!

    Another thing, is that if your weapons start turning up at crime scenes in alarming numbers, and when the man comes to see you, you don't have any records of who you sold them to!

    Not many Mausers, Mosin Nagants, M1 Garands, Swedes, or old spanish pistols turn up at crime scenes do they?

    Basically, I think, if you "HAVE" a collection, and you kept good records of acquisition and disposition, without any attempt to falsify / hide anything, any inspector will be able to see that all that you have bought / sold was a successful attempt to enhance your collection.

    Where does it say in "ANY" regulation, how aggressively you may collect? Where does it say how much money you can spend. Whats the difference between buying 1 $10K weapon, or a 1000 ten dollar ones? I could dispose of the 1 if I decided I didn't need / want it, why not the thousand?

    I don't think the number has anything to do with this process, I think the results are what matters.

    Said another way, If you actually have an "enhanced collection", your purchases and disposals are what enhanced it, and you have your BB to prove it!



    whitebear74
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    (4/10/02 8:38:48 pm)
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    If you read the original posting , he makes no mention of enhancing his collection. He just says with a small investment and some labor he can make quick $60 profit on each piece. Does that fit the definition of "engaged in business" which the ATF defines as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit. The preceding word "profit" is found in ATF P 5300.11(3-2001) page 2, Introduction,Federally Licensed Firearms Collectors, second paragraph. He would certainly be devoting time, attention and labor and his principal objective is profit . What the ATF defines as regular course of trade or business , I don't know? What they consider livelihood , I don't know . But as soon as I hear from the ATF I'll let you know. How does the government prove the defendant's intent in any other case? How does the defendant prove that it was not his intent? He obviously does not plan to collect the mausers , he plans to sell them. Maybe they'll use the "carnivore" program to find his internet posting and use it against him. Maybe the ATF is monitoring this site looking for suspected violators.

    Edited by: whitebear74 at: 4/10/02 9:45:59 pm

    Moskovskyya
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    (4/10/02 10:23:40 pm)
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    Whitebear74, you are right about the original poster, he has said plainly that he would purchase intending to make a profit in multiple business transactions! He did not say he was purchasing on an 03, he may be an 01. Bob in SL did not say the same thing. He has an 03, and said he made multiple purchases with the intent of enhancing his collection, and with some fix up be more able to dispose of the "not needed" pieces with a profit possibility to enhance the collection even further. This is the agressive collecting that I eluded to in my prevous post!

    I was not argueing on behalf of the first poster, quite the contrary, I agree with you on his statements. Reading all the posts on this thread just caused me to think of all the different things I've heard on this particular topic and it started me on a "ramble On" kind of thing sorry!

    Also, I'm sure the authorities monitor all these websites looking for possible violators of the law! I think these websites are where they get their list of " inspectionees" don't you?



    whitebear74
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    (4/12/02 7:40:32 pm)
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    Mosko.... I don't doubt that ATF peruses these sites looking for scofflaws. The original poster didn't mention having an FFL of any type but from his posting I got the impression that he was a young(er) fellow who has a 03 FFL . I may be wrong.
    I received a reply from the Atlanta ATF office today. From it I get the impression that there is "hold" criteria that the ATF uses to determine intent. Here's what their reply says:
    "WHILE A LICENSED COLLECTOR MAY ACQUIRE CURIOS OR RELICS AND DISPOSE OF SAME FROM A PERSONAL COLLECTION, THE COLLECTOR IS NOT AUTHORIZED TO ENGAGE IN A FIREARMS DEALING BUSINESS IN CURIOS OR RELICS PURSUANT TO A COLLECTOR'S LICENSE. AS STATED IN 27CFR 178.41(d) " IF THE ACQUISITION AND DISPOSITION OF CURIOS OR RELICS BY A COLLECTOR BRING THE COLLECTOR WITHIN THE THE DEFINITION OF A MANUFACTURER, IMPORTER,OR DEALER UNDER THIS PART, HE SHALL QUALIFY AS SUCH. FOR EXAMPLE, IF A COLLECTOR ACQUIRES CURIOS OR RELICS FOR THE PURPOSE OF SALE RATHER THAN TO ENHANCE A COLLECTION, THE COLLECTOR WOULD HAVE TO BE LICENSED AS A DEALER IN FIREARMS UNDER THE GUN CONTROL ACT." "
    If you check out 27CFR 178.41(d) it mentions "holding". So I take it that if the ATF inspects your bound book and finds multiple purchases of a certain make and/ or model at one time, of which most of them are sold off, and this pattern of purchase and resale is repeated, the collector might have some explaining to do. The ATF didn't answer my question as to whether making a multiple purchase of a model, keeping the best one(s) and selling the rest is "dealing" or "enhancing a collection". Maybe the regs are purposely meant to be ambiguous.
    My only concern is that a few folks who abuse the purpose that the 03 license was created for will ruin it for the many who don't.
    I'm sure that you will agree that the requirements and cost of obtaining the class 03 FFL are quite easy to meet. You know what happened when they changed the class 01 requirements. Experience has taught me that it's easier and less costly to stay out of trouble than it is to get out of it.

    Edited by: whitebear74 at: 4/12/02 11:18:16 pm

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (4/16/02 8:23:44 pm)
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    Whitebear, no offense is meant, but I really think people who continually run to the ATF asking for clarification over what they THINK others are doing wrong will do more to "hurt others with 03FFLs and the future of 03 FFLs" than anything we are talking about doing here...heck, any scrutiny it will hurt 01s as well...

    The ATF has enough problems with guys with absolutely NO FFL of any kind selling at shows continually with dozens of "regular" guns in inventory and a sign that says "PRIVATE COLLECTION-NO PAPER." What are THEY thinking, and how do they get away with it? THAT will hurt ALL buying and selling , legal or not, more than anything that's tripping your trigger and causing all your letters to the ATF...

    I see them at shows all the time...

    "Nothing shall preclude the collector from disposing all or part of his collection at any time..."

    There is NO time limit ANYWHERE in the regs, so if you were to buy a gun, log it in, walk out back and shoot it, not like it, and sell it to your neighbor at a profit 5 minutes later...



    ...it WAS in your collection....PERIOD. It is LEGAL.


    Buying a gun, intending to sell it to your neighbor, and selling it to him 5 minutes after you log it in? The INTENT may NOT have been legal, but can YOU prove the transaction was? And it WAS logged into your collection...The POINT is there IS bigger problems out there the ATF has to deal with...and since CR gunss are simply NOT involved in crimes, THEY do not want to "Prove it..." It just BETTER have been logged....


    So buying 25 91/30s in bulk HOPING to find the one ex-sniper Tula 1943 so you can rebuild into one, and not finding it, and selling ALL 25 the next day when you find there is not?

    ALL 25 WERE in your collection! Even for the 2 days it would take you to log it in...

    The KEY is "enhancing your collection....." vs. livelihood....

    Did a guy who bought 20 M44s, refinished them all, then had a chance to buy a decent Garand for $1000 and sold ALL them M44s at $50 each and bought it, "enhance his collection????"


    You HAVE to say yes....


    But you see that guy at the show with the 20 M44s for sale, and he's a CRFFL...would you get all bent out of shape and "report" him to the ATF simply because you didn't have all the facts?


    YOU would then be the problem at that point, not him.....





    And when you get your letters back and so know the "definitive" answer on this from the ATF, before you post it, please do us all a favor and write them asking about the requirements about CRs logging non CR guns, and CR guns purchased BEFORE getting the CR, or CR guns purchased via 4473, without benefit of the CR...




    And you can add it to our collection of about 100 replies from various ATF offices around the country that all have DIFFERENT answers...


    Finally, what kind of FFL do you have, this argument sounds suspiciously like one we hear advanced from misinformed 01 FFLs that do not like ANYONE having a CRFFL, AND will do anything to hurt the whole CRFFL process, because they resent the fact we don't need them to recieve for us any more, and they need a scapegoat on which to blame their decreasing sales, instead of their inability to compete with WalMart....
    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    whitebear74
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    Posts: 19
    (4/17/02 9:43:09 pm)
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    I have an 03 and as far as the a..hole , if the shoe fits wear it

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3451
    (4/17/02 10:50:14 pm)
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    Whitebear, the "signature" line you see is from a movie, and I thought it was a good line at the time...it is NOT aimed at anyone in particular, I'm sorry you misunderstood that too.

    I'm also sorry if you intended to call me a name, that is not allowed on this board.

    I understand your concerns, but I also think we need to be concerned with out OWN actions and not anyone elses.

    Do people abuse the CRFFL? Probably...just like any OTHER regulation get's "stretched..."

    But until you have all the facts, I maintain writing a letter to the ATF for clarification is the problem...as you said in one of your posts, "maybe they write them to be ambiguous on purpose..."

    Bingo. Live and learn.

    BTW, the shoe did NOT fit, you can have it back...
    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"
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