Massacre by us?

Discussion in 'General Military Arms & History Forum' started by Guest, Mar 3, 2003.

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    the real fredneck
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    (7/16/01 8:25:06 pm)
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    Was reading an article today about WWII and a former german soldier mentioned a masssacre of 400 german POWs by US MPs of the 157th infantry regiment of the 45th division on April 29, 1945 at or near Dachau. I don't remember ever reading or hearing about this before, can anyone else provide some information?

    polishshooter
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    (7/16/01 8:44:09 pm)
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    I know I have heard of many times US troops killed German POWs, but never in anything approaching 400...plus many GIs are "talking" about it as they approach their own mortality.

    Some of the "first hand accounts" given now, bottled up inside for more than 50 years, are USUALLY mistaken about the size or scope of them, but I do NOT doubt they occured to some extent, just the numbers may have gotten exaggerated with age, and guilt does strange things to the memory.

    Usually ones or twos or fives when the fighting was hot and they couldn't leave the line. although there were several larger ones after the German "massacre" at Malmedy became well known after the Bulge.

    I'll pull some newer references and see what I can find.

    We should not be surprised that it indeed happened, even though nobody heard of it at the time of even for years afterward. Nobody publicizes their OWN atrocities in time of war, only the enemy's.

    Beware the Warped Crufflers.

    Investig8tor
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    (7/16/01 9:46:18 pm)
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    Those that win wars, write the history.

    I was raised a Yankee and was taught the civil war was about slavery. Moved to the Old Dominion 3 years ago and learned it was about the south trying to secede because of unfair trade practice. Also learned the a negro was among the first slave owners in Virginia.

    17th FA Bn
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    (7/17/01 6:25:33 am)
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    A few years back a story came to light that U.S. troops may have killed many South Korean civilians at a place called No Gun Ri (spelling?). They were worried that North Koreans were using the civilians as cover to infiltrate. One of the U.S. veterans who came forward to "confess" this "war crime" in fact was an ordinance man who was not on the front line or any where near the alleged incident. 50 years latter what actualy happened there is still in dispute.

    Like Polish I have heard of U.S. troops killing POWs. Usually it was in the heat of the moment and close to the line, and only small numbers of men. In "Band of Brothers" one of the officers stated that he new if he sent prisoners back with certain men that the prisoners always tried to "escape" and were shot in the back. He didn't like to lose the prisoners because German POWs would usualy talk and give up useful info.

    Prisoners taken near Dauchau might have been SS guards from the concentration camp. The SS had a well deserved reputation for murder, and GIs would remember some of the massacres done by them against our troops.

    In many instances the Germans shot medics who were evacuating the wounded right through the red cross on their helmets. After seeing that the GIs might tend to be a little vengeful.

    Edited by: 17th FA Bn at: 7/17/01 8:17:33 pm

    the real fredneck
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    (7/17/01 8:01:56 am)
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    the victims were presumed to have been the SS guards but they had left the night before

    polishshooter
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    (7/17/01 9:22:51 am)
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    Yeah, April 29th would have made it right at the end, when all the concentration camps were being "liberated," and all the GIs were coming face to face with the hard evidence of the holocaust that each had thought was only rumors or propaganda.

    There are lots of accounts of guys who really didn't "hate" the Germans or even do anything special or out of character before, cracking up and killing both SS troops AND civilians in the surrounding areas after seeing "Man's inhumanity to Man."

    There are accounts of "roughing" up the civilians that were forced to come into the camps and bury the dead and clean up the mess. Even THAT was against the Geneva Convention, much less the roughing up.

    But I would have done the same thing or worse, I think...

    But what I am truly shocked about, is that while it seems to be the trend by "historians" and journalists now to "expose" all these "atrocities" committed by the "so-called 'Good Guys,'" there is a growing tendency to belittle or even QUESTION that the Holocaust ever happened...

    I think it's because the greatest "publicists" were Jews, and there are bigoted anti-"Zionists" and Nazi apologists even in learned circles and academia.

    It HAPPENED. It WAS more terrible and horrifying than can be imagined...and it wasn't only Jews..."only" 6 million of those. Another 8 million killed simply because they were "Eastern European," thus "untermenschen." And then all the retarded, "mentally defective," Gypsies, "old," "Medical experiments,"etc, etc, etc.

    We can NEVER forget...EVER. If you look long enough you will find a category YOU fit that the Nazis "eliminated."

    Take it "personal." It WAS. And it COULD happen again, if we let it.

    Beware the Warped Crufflers.

    the real fredneck
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    (7/17/01 10:13:03 am)
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    polishshooter
    wasn't trying to be an apologist or revisionist nor obtuse enough to believe that rapes, murders and other incidents of war didn't occur on all sides, history should be about the truth, unvarnished and stated simply, this incident was one I could not recall any info about, not being judgemental

    kdubaz
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    (7/17/01 12:24:27 pm)
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    I've read (and forgot!) a lot of WWII history - can't recall anything of this magnitude regarding killing of prisoners by US troops. The incident in Korea most probably happened - too many survivors and troops on hand saying it did. The fact remains, one of the most effective North Korean means of breaching US lines at that time was the use of civilians on the roads and the mixing of communists troops in civilian clothing to get past the roadblocks, or near the US troops. Using the railroad overpass to bottle up the road was a military decision, right or wrong - and who says mistakes aren't made by all in warfare? Unless your 2 feet are planted on the spot at the time of the event, I'd say 50 and 60 year old hindsight is a little late!
    Keep below the ridgeline!

    polishshooter
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    (7/17/01 8:16:02 pm)
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    Fred, I wasn't referring to you at all.

    I was referring to historians and journalists with an apparent agenda.

    I guess it's an offshoot of both Vietnam and Watergate, but there seems to be a trend to now questioning EVERYTHING the "good guys" did, and believe it or not, WE were the "good guys."

    Not "Perfect Guys," but at least the "Good" ones.

    But the scary sidelight is the trend to belittle or minimize the atrocities of Nazi Germany, or even the abuses in the Soviet Union over the 70 or so years of Communism.

    The archives of that era are JUST being opened, but everyone is like "ho hum, ANCIENT history!":

    You'd think instead of No Go Ri, some excitement would be generated by seeing REAL archives from the Gulag, or KGB prisons and interrogation cells, instead everyone seems to want to catch US doing or having done something wrong!

    It's frustration, more than anything...
    Beware the Warped Crufflers.

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