Mauser WWII? Help on Maker and Model

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by firekidd, Oct 10, 2011.

  1. firekidd

    firekidd New Member

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    Need help on maker and model

    This read on the barrel
    Made in Turkey
    8mm
    C.A.L. ST. ALB. VT

    I was told this was a WWII Mauser

    Here is the set of pictures

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  2. 45Auto

    45Auto Active Member

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    It's not easy to say which factory first made an action used in a Turkish Mauser. The Turks rebuilt old rifles over and over again and placed new markings on them. If I had to guess, I'd say it was first manufactured in Germany.
  3. Alpo

    Alpo Well-Known Member

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    That CAL is actually CAI. Century Arms International in St. Albins Vermont. They are the importers.
  4. grcsat

    grcsat Active Member

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    Hi, you do indeed have a Turkish mauser. However it appears to have the charging slot on the receiver ground down to make it look like a model 98.
    One interisting point is that many believe that the recievers are of a softer steel than the german 98 and care should be taken if you rebarrel it to a different cal.
  5. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    45Auto is correct. In spite of the CAI marking, Turkey never made any Mauser rifles; all they used were imported, mostly from Germany. In 1938, they decided to bring the hodge-podge of rifles up to a uniform appearance, basically that of the German K.98k. The resulting rifles, regardless of derivation or original appearance, are referred to as "the Turkish Model 1938", a term that has caused a lot of confusion among American collectors and gunsmiths. Many were ex-German 98a carbines, hence the talk about "small ring" Turkish Mausers.

    For that reason, discussion of materials and whether "Turkish steel" is soft is pointless.

    That one is actually based on a standard Model 1898 action, origin unknown.

    The receiver markings are: T C = Turkiye Cumhuriyet (Turkish Republic)
    AS FA = Askari Fabrika (Military Factory)
    Ankara = Ankara, the capital of Turkey
    KKALE = Kirikkale, the arsenal in Ankara that did the modification work.
    1938 = the year the work was done.

    Since Turkey was neutral in WWII, that rifle is not technically a WWII rifle.

    Jim
  6. grcsat

    grcsat Active Member

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    Turkey started producing thier own vertion of the mauser in 1940 this rifle is known as 1938/K.Kale .The 1938/K.Kale was not made up of german parts but was completely built of all parts made and produced in turkey.


    High serial numbers by year for K'Kale marked rifles:

    1940 0 to 40136: approximately 40,000 rifles.

    1941 to 66952: 26,000 rifles.

    1942 to 113321: 53,000 rifles.

    1943 to 150354: 36,000 rifles.

    1944 to 199454: 49,000 rifles.

    1945 to 221343: 21,000 rifles.

    1946 to 239120: 17,000 rifles.

    Approximately 250,000 K'Kale marked rifles were produced from 1940 to 1946

    An easy way to tell if you have a NON german parts rifle is that there will be a stamped letter Z on the underside of the receiver near the front recoil lug.
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2011
  7. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    Interesting and contrary to information I have seen in other sources. I wonder if there is possible confusion with the various rifles altered by Kirikkale to the "Model 1938" configuration, rather than actually made from scratch (steel forgings) by Kirikkale.

    Jim
  8. grcsat

    grcsat Active Member

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    I believe the confusion comes from two very different rifles. The Model 1938 and the 1938 K.Kale. The model 1938 was made up of mauser parts from different sourses, while the 1938 K.Kale was made from forgings in Turkey due to a lack of avable parts. The dementions of 1938 K.Kale are quite different than that of a standard mauser even though most parts enterchange.

    So what we have is Kirikkale making the Model 1938(from parts) and then suddenly changing in 1940 to building the 1938 K.Kale.
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2011
  9. firekidd

    firekidd New Member

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    thank you all for help on this rifle
  10. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    This is very interesting. Can you indicate how the 1938 K.Kale differs from the standard 1898 Mauser? To be honest, I found it hard to believe that Turkey made 250,000 rifles that seem to have "slipped through the cracks".

    Of course, almost all of the various rifles previously reported as altered had the original markings removed and Turkish markings put on. AFAIK all that work was done at Kirikkale. The majority of the 1898 type were 98AZ carbines acquired by Turkey from Germany after WWI; those are the ones called "Turkish small ring Mausers" by collectors. They are Model 1898 actions but were made with the small receiver ring to reduce weight.

    Jim
  11. grcsat

    grcsat Active Member

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    Hi, as soon as I dig up one of my old recievers I will post the specs.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2011
  12. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    Actually, I would like to see a source (other than the guns) for the info. Like I said, it appears to contradict a lot of what is in the books. (Of course, we all rely on books and writing for this stuff; I was in second grade in 1940, not in Turkey watching them make rifles.)

    Jim
  13. grcsat

    grcsat Active Member

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    No prob. Here is one of several soureces

    http://www.turkmauser.com/serialNumbers.aspx

    This list deals with what has been used and is quite up to date.
    I tryd to do a C&P but for some reason the page seems to scramble when I try to load it onto TFF.
  14. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    But if (as I had understood) those rifles were reworked rifles that were given new markings and new serial numbers, how can a serial number survey prove anything about the actual origin? Also, I note the "Enfmauser" listed. If Kirikkale was capable of manufacturing from scratch some 50,000 Model 98 type per year, why would they bother producing 2000 of those mongrels?

    For those not familiar with the rifle, it is basically a British Enfield, modified to look and to some extent function like a Mauser, with a Mauser type box magazine. It is a good example of what can be done to make one rifle look like a very different rifle for a uniform appearance on the parade ground, but not something a factory turning out over a thousand top quality rifles a day would bother with. (I thought I had some pics, but can't seem to find them at the moment.)

    Jim
  15. grcsat

    grcsat Active Member

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    My understanding is that the Kirikkale plant started to producing the 1938 K.Kale after all the old parts had been used up. To make things even more confusing is that Kirkkale was known not to produce the raw cast "98" recievers ,but to do the fit and finish of the recievers to make the 1938 K.Kale. The rough recievers were made else were in Turkey. I have yet to find a confermed place as to were the casting was done.

    Tryng to understand the production of the Turkish rifles is at best very confusing and I don't claim to understand much of it. But only bits and pieces of its production.

    Please note I used the word "cast." I have yet to find out wheather these recievers were rough cast or machined from solid stock or how they were even made.
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2011
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