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Military Gunsmiths

16K views 40 replies 13 participants last post by  thuderbird7 
#1 ·
I'd be interested in chatting with any current or former military small arms specialists. Besides being a former 11B rifleman in Vietnam, I later served as a 45B20(H) small arms repair instructor. As a federal civilian, I was the small arms repair inspector at Fort Drum, NY in the mid 80 to mid 90's, and was then promoted to Equipment Specialist (Ordnance) with the Fort Drum MAIT (Maintenance Assistance and Instruction Team). I created the Unit Armorer Course at Fort Drum, a two week ADVANCED firearms repair course, and traveled to many locations within and outside of the continental United States; taking my higher-level course on the road. My course addressed subjects such as metallurgy, firearms design theory, basic and advanced ballistics, math for gunsmiths, propellant chemistry, military small arms repair, and military marksmanship. I am also the author of the US Army's only published book on the subject, "The Armorer's Handbook", which for years has been available online.

I also am a distinguished honor graduate of the 9-week US Air Force Combat Arms Instructor Course and served many years in the Air National Guard in various Security Police squadrons as a senior Combat Arms Training and Maintenance Specialist. I am a graduate of the Remington Arms School in Ilion, NY and specialized in the M24 Sniper Weapons System and match grade weapons. I am also a former (recovering) competitive shooter.

I would be interested in starting a discussion group for military firearms specialists. If you read this and are interested, please contact me. We are an under-recognized, but important part of what makes America's military the most lethal in the world.

Chuck Ruggiero
aka "Guntutor"
 
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#30 ·
Update on the AR-15 problems... One little thing I cant believe I overlooked. I replaced the gas tube in the bushmaster, that helped, but did not completely fix the problem of not wanting to eject the empty and if it did it wouldnt strip a new round from the mag... so, I was just about ready to order a new bolt when I actually accidentally stumbled upon the solution. I had began the task of developing a hunting load for deer and hog using H4895 and 53 gr. Barnes TSX bullets. So I loaded my first batch of trial loads for accuracy and bullet expansion tests and headed to the land. I loaded up the first mag and dropped the bolt on a loaded round, zeroed in on the target, BANG, so out of habit from fighting my up til then problem i grabbed the charging handle, pulled it sharply to the rear and, WHAT? A loaded round popped out of the chamber... hmmm, thats odd... so i put it back into the magazine and zereod back in on the target, BANG, held zero, BANG, BANG, BANG. All 5 shots within an inch of one another at 100 yds and EVERY round functioned through the rifle. What the HELL?! I pondered. So I loaded up the next 5 and once again flawless function. AS was all the rounds I tested that day. So, I get back to the house and begin to pilfer through my various books and loading manuals. Even googled the internet. Heres my educated conclusion... The handloads I was using (21.5gr of Reloder 7 behind a 55 gr. Hornady V-max) was not producing a long enough pressure curve for reliable operation of a semi-autmatic action. The peak pressure was dropping off before the bolt was halfway through its opening cycle. and the powder the test loads was using (25.5 gr. H4895 behind a 53 gr TSX) was a little slower than the reloder 7 (reloder 7 = 93 of 173 on the burn rate chart and H4895 = 110 of 173) so this got me to wondering. I loaded several different powders from reloder 7 to reloder 15 and the only 2 powder i used that did not operate the action were reloder 7 and IMR 3031. the others used, Reloder 10X, H4895, IMR 4895, Varget, IMR 4064, and reloder 15. ALL other performed well and the best group obtained using 53 gr sierra Matchkings was 5 shots in 5/8" using 25.5 gr. IMR 4895 ( i did not use the barnes TSX for testing powders. Too expensive) I had a very close second using 26.9 gr. reloder 15 (compressed load) which yielded a 3/4" 5 shot group at 100 yds. All in all it turned out well and Im glad to have solved my problems and obtained some useful knowledge in the mean time...
 
#31 · (Edited)
Ah yeah.

We had a guy bring his personal AR out one day. Fired some green tip 5.56mm in it. It wouldn't grab another round for nothing. Was a single shot.

We was all up in the damn thing then somebody was like....it says .223 Rem on the barrel. HHhhmmmm.

So he has some white box .223 dropped off that afternoon. Shot fine. What we figured was the 5.56mm was doing an ugly number on the gas system, pressure wise.

In an AR, I think the ammo should never be ruled out too quickly in the investigation.:D
 
#33 ·
Chuck,
I was wondering if you and the others on this post could help me out with some information. My son who will be a senior in HS this year is interested in the military and in gunsmithing. Are there schools that you all recommend him attend and any advice on career options? I'm trying to figure out how to combine his love of guns and the military into a career. I'd appreciate any help you can give me.
Nancy
 
#34 ·
Chuck,
I was wondering if you and the others on this post could help me out with some information. My son who will be a senior in HS this year is interested in the military and in gunsmithing. Are there schools that you all recommend him attend and any advice on career options? I'm trying to figure out how to combine his love of guns and the military into a career. I'd appreciate any help you can give me.
Nancy
Steer him toward the marines. All marines are trained weapons experts and sharpshooters. Once hes in he will know where to go... Probably find himself in an armory working on service weapons if hes adamant about the gunsmithing part...
 
#35 ·
Combining a hobby with a profession can ruin a hobby:)

Most of the "gunsmithing" has been contracted to civilian companies. The catch is that they place high preference on armorer MOS's, almost exclusively for hiring. (One reason is that a guy just out of the military still has a Secret clearance, so the company doesn't have to drop several thousand dollars on a fresh civilian + training costs. And why hire anyone you must train if the military ETS pool makes new applicants every week?)

The high paying overseas contracts (almost $100,000 yr) go to Aberdeen (APG) trained first.


Don't let the recruiter tell him "your unit can send you to armorer school when you get there". That is a unit armorer, which just manages an armsroom for accountability and minor fixes, and the unit armorer course will be local and never count for crap anywhere else.

If his AIT doesn't say Aberdeen (Army/Marine) or Lackland AFB (Air Force), tell the recruiter he has a misunderstanding.
 
#36 · (Edited)
Delta 13 is correct. Aberdeen is the place for Army/Marine Corps ordnance training, but that will change next year when the US Army Ordnance Center and School relocates to Fort Lee, Virginia as the result of a BRAC (Base Realignment and Closure Commission) ruling. All combat service support MOS training will be done at Fort Lee in the future. Most of the ordnance museum's historic artillery and tanks have already been moved from Aberdeen (by the way, I am an expert on this issue, I just retired from federal civil service at my last duty position; police chief at Aberdeen).
The USAF teaches it's weapons repair people at Lackland AFB. I attended school there in 1986 as a member of a security police squadron in the Air National Guard. Their schools are top notch; I graduated with a 4.0 average as the distinguished honor graduate of my class, and I worked my TAIL off at that school!
The Air Force is a great employer and out of all the branches of the military, they are more respectful of the individual, and their personnel policy instructions (formerly called regulations), bear that fact out. I spent 12 years in the Air Force System. The Marine Corps is by far the most professional, weapons-oriented organization. They also believe in building men out of boys, and their expectations are high for individual performance. There is a high degree of risk in the USMC, because everyone is a rifleman first, and a specialist second.
The Army, as Delta 13 stated, does not have formal training for armorers in the larger sense. I was the armorer instructor for the US Army's 10th Mountain Division back in the days before I became a law enforcement officer. I was appalled to learn that the Army had NO SCHOOLS I could attend for higher level training (I was an Ordnance Equipment Specialist, GS-1670-09 at the time). Instead, the Army suggested that I should teach their ordnance specialists because of my combat experience with military weapons, and USAF weapons background. I was invited to Aberdeen Proving Ground and interviewed by the Director of the Ordnance School for a position as a senior weapons maintenance instructor. I was disappointed by what I saw of the school, because it was rudimentary. At Fort Drum I was also the quality assurance inspector for all of the weaponry on post, and I was always very disappointed by the lack of knowledge that 45B small arms specialists suffered from. The warrant officers who supervised them were a little better, but not much. At times I had to tighten them up on technical standards, including the art of taking critical measurements, metallurgy skills such as stress testing and hardness testing, etc.
I'd walk way from the army. I spent years as a soldier and then many years as an Army civilian. If I had to do it all over again, I'd tkae the Marine Corps or the Air Force in a heartbeat. Hope this helps.

Chuck
 
#37 ·
Mr.Ruggiero,

I was hoping you could help me with a situation. I attended one of your courses during early February 2006, and was hoping you could help me out. I'm sending you a private message with a little more details. Sorry for "stalking" you on the internet...... ran out of options with range control.


Detective Champion
DoD Police Dept.
Washington, DC
 
#38 ·
I am not gunsmith professionally but for the most part I do everything besides welding and re-barreling. I refurbish old military rifles including wood, do my own repairs and parts replacements, tune 1911's and do my own trigger's, including double action S&W's. I just finished my second glass smooth, 10.5 pound trigger on an N frame and have done a couple of K and L frames as well. Maybe I'll post a video of it later. I'm just an enthusiast and I learned everything from my dad growing up in my teenage years. He's the wood refinishing expert and probably one of the best in our state. Another local fella taught me the basics of S&W DA revolver trigger jobs. Anyhow, I think it's very cool that you're getting into this field as I already know you're a shooter and enthusiast. I'll be eager to hear how this unfolds for you.
 
#39 ·
Gun safety requires that people properly maintain and understand the
mechanics of their firearms. But information is not so easy to find on
proper assembly and dissassemble, gunsmithing and maintenance.
To address this deficiency in public domain knowledge, this collection
of books and field manuals has been assembled as a public service. This
collection includes the following books:
 
#40 ·
My Granddad and Father both Army had their arms favorites. The military is a good proving ground for smiting. What they learned was passed down just as my Moms Marine brothers passed on to their heirs...
Great legacy's.
 
#41 ·
Hey guys, I just finished the Fort Bliss Small Arms Master Gunner Course today, and all I can say is WOW! I learned soooo much. I wish the Army treated small arms like they do big bullets, and made this an Army recognized course with an ASI. I recommend this course to EVERY NCO/OFFICER! It wasn't a "souped up armorers course", nor was it a "Sniper Course". It taught SDZ's, 6-month range plans, weapons, optics, lasers, training aids, Ultimate Training Munitions (ouch!), Shoulder Launched Munitions, EST Operator/Certification, and STRAC. PEO Soldier also came and talked fielding for each of our units, and what is being developed and adapted by the Army. The Instructors were very knowledgeable, and helpful. I left there with knowledge, and enough classes, offsets, and information to melt a pogue's brain!!! Kudos to Fort Bliss for running this excellent course! Let me know if you want some info, or have any questions!
 
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