Model 38 Carcano

Discussion in 'Curio & Relics Forum' started by cointoss2, Mar 4, 2003.

  1. cointoss2

    cointoss2 Guest

    mckheean
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    Posts: 14
    (8/1/02 12:28:14 pm)
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    I just purchased a Model 38 Carcano from SOG that should arrive today.I have been told this is the Kennedy Rifle,I hope this is true.Does anyone know what kind of scope Oswald had on his rifle or a site that describes it? I bought a Model 38 in 1962 when I was 14 years old out of a barrel in a department store for $8.95 then sportized it for a deer rifle now I want a original one to go with my Mausers.

    mauserman454
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    (8/1/02 1:34:32 pm)
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    Yup, I bought one of those from SOG a couple of months ago. Yes it is the Rifle that Lee Harvey Oswald used to shoot President kennedy. I don't know what kind of scope it was, but I know it was mounted when he mail ordered the rifle. Becasue he mail ordered the military surplus rifle, it brought about the gun control act of 1968. I'm not to sure about all the details, but I'm sure someone in this forum knows much more about it.

    AntiqueDr
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (8/1/02 1:48:09 pm)
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    ezSupporter
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    See if you can find some magic bullets like Oswald had...
    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
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    1886lebel
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    (8/1/02 7:10:52 pm)
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    mckheean,
    Oswalds rifle was a Model 91/38 short rifle,with the serial number bieng C2766, it was produced in 1940 at the Terni Arsenal, and is chambered for the 6.5x52mm Carcano, and was one of a very small procurement for "Guardie Del Duce". This was a very small elite group dedicated to protecting Mussolini and seeing to his safety and well being. One of the features of these rifles was that the stocks were purposely dyed black. The scope used was side-mounted 4x18 scope as imported by Ordnance Optics Inc., Hollywood, California, from Japan and installed by the mail-order distributor of the rifle, Klein's Sporting Goods.
    Patrick

    Vive La Belle France,Lebel y Poilu
    The Curio and Relic Firearms Forum

    mckheean
    Member
    Posts: 15
    (8/2/02 7:04:27 am)
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    Thanks for all the reply's,I would like to find some magic bullet's for it,the one I have had for 40 years you would be doing good to shoot a 6" group at 100 yards with it.Oswald must have been lucky.

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (8/2/02 3:38:07 pm)
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    Let's just say he was more than lucky -

    He must have been the fastest bolt action manipulator and THE expert marksman of his day.
    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"

    1886lebel
    Member
    Posts: 8
    (8/2/02 5:10:15 pm)
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    Reading all of your replys concerning
    "He must have been the fastest bolt action manipulator and THE expert marksman of his day." and "See if you can find some magic bullets like Oswald had... "
    I hate to break the news to you all, that a rifleman that is trained on a bolt action gun can rapidly and accuratley load and fire a bolt gun without ever taking it off his shoulder.
    The Military Armies of the World during the period of late 1880's to 1945 were primarly bolt action orientated that they stressed that type of shooting. The British with thier SMLE were particularly noted as doing this type of shooting.
    Hornady is now making 6.5x52mm Carcano ammunition with the correct .268 diameter bullet. A .264 diameter bullet will work in it but isn't correct as it will lose some of its accuracy.
    I have heard others that are using the Hornady bullets and brass this top of the line ammunition.
    Patrick
    The Curio and Relic Firearms Forum

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (8/3/02 4:46:55 pm)
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    1886Lebel -

    If you believe Oswald was the lone shooter in the Dallas incident, there's a bunch of us ol' boys that would like to sell you our shares in the Brooklyn Bridge Co.

    There's no argument that some bolt action firearms may be rapidly manuplitated by an expert - I just don't happen to believe Oswald was one of them. As far as his uncanny marksmanship with a recognized piece of CRAP, I'll tend to think it was rather difficult for him to make a headshot to the front of the head, when all he had to aim at was the back, with or without the fine bit of Italian craftsmanship.

    BTW - Welcome to the board!
    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (8/4/02 12:28:57 am)
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    Welcome to the board, 1886, but if YOU have ever tried to "Rapidly fire a BA" , in a match, at game, or in any stressful situation, you will find it is next to impossible to NOT take the rifle from your shoulder, or at least pull your head from the stock. Some rifles are better suited for this than others, but for example, that is one of the knocks against the Mosin Nagants...it is IMPOSSIBLE to work it from the shoulder, yeah, I'm not sure of the Carcano, granted, and SOME shooters can do it better than others, but Oswald was NOT anything but a barely trained Marine Marksman. I hate to hear some guys say "He was a Marine MARKSMAN, after all..." The only rating LOWER than Marksman in the Marine Corp is "Unqualified."

    Plus. I don't know if you ever used a side-mount, one of the reasons for why they are not popular today is that they are not as fast for follow up shots as an overbore scope.

    Plus, there is no evidence Oswald even sighted in the scope/rifle.

    SO the fact is, a barely trained ex-Marine rifleman supposedly received a 23 year old surplus rifle, of a type he may have never SEEN before outside of the magazine, much less shot, with a cobbled together after market scope and mount, went and made three perfect shots on a moving target, shots that granted are possible, but were duplicated ONLY by experts far better trained than Oswald...










    ...who btw could NOT ever duplicate the "Magic Bullet." Also known as "The Disappearing Magic Bullet."


    No matter how parochial they are, anybody has to admit that was the weakest part of the conspiracy. It MAY have worked if they only picked a Mauser, or a Springfield, or even an Enfield for the "Patsy" to shoot.....

    But to have picked a Carcano carbine for Oswald was stupid...




    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    1886lebel
    Member
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    (8/4/02 11:52:24 am)
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    polishshooter,
    Actually i have fired a Bolt Action Gun in a rapid fire at a match and yes i can fire exactly that way without ever moving weapon and head away from the stock.
    Now i admit that most of the time i do move one or the other but all i was trying to say is that it is not next to impossible to do. I have practiced this enough shooting that i have really become pretty good at doing this type of shooting, but has taken me a while to get that way.

    "As far as his uncanny marksmanship with a recognized piece of CRAP, I'll tend to think it was rather difficult for him to make a headshot to the front of the head, when all he had to aim at was the back, with or without the fine bit of Italian craftsmanship."

    "But to have picked a Carcano carbine for Oswald was stupid..."


    Here is where i plan on defending the Carcano.....
    Most people here in the U.S., think that the French, which i collect and enjoy, and Italian weapons as junk and worthless garbage. Yes the Mauser, Enfield, Springfield, are better known weapons and are great battle weapons. But it must be remembered that Lebels, Berthiers, Carcanos were also great shooters and battle weapons. The reason i see that these weapons get picked on are that they they are misunderstood.
    The Carcano is actually an excellent shooter, the problem is in its sights which are bulky and hard to use...i agree there...and some of different Models of them even have one setting of 300 meters, which was a battlefield zero if you
    want to call it that...but for what it was designed for, it is a excellent weapon.
    I really don't want to argue the issue of what people believe in what weapons are better and such.
    I enjoy my field of collecting French Weapons and i know that Italian collectors feel the same way as i do.
    This is what i like about having these types of boards is that we all can share our knowledge of our different fields of expertise on different weapons and such.

    Trivia
    Did any of you know that the Italians developed the Tumbling Round in 1899, and the U.S.Military copied it, in later years with intro. of the 5.56.

    Patrick

    Vive La Belle France,Lebel y Poilu
    The Curio and Relic Firearms Forum

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 5641
    (8/4/02 12:03:36 pm)
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    Trivia
    Did any of you know that the Italians developed the Tumbling Round in 1899, and "the U.S.Military copied it, in later years with intro. of the 5.56"

    That is pure BS.........LTS

    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
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    (8/4/02 1:51:41 pm)
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    ezSupporter
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    I been waiting for 1886 to jump in on this.





    LTS, everyone knows that tumbling bullet is why you cannot salvage any meat from a deer shot with one. Shoot a deer in the nose and the bullet scrambles everything inside and comes out the tail. Now that IS a load of BS.


    1886lebel
    Member
    Posts: 11
    (8/4/02 2:11:07 pm)
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    LINKTOSHOOT,
    As a member of the TFF Staff Member i find your comment insulting to me.
    I Moderate for the Curio and Relics Firearms Forum and i would never insult someone in that manner.
    I find it very disrespectful to others out there who happen to be reading this in a post calling something....BS
    You could have used more tact than you did.
    If you had disagreed with that you could have stated your case i believe in a much better manner than by using that type of language. I might have been wrong about what i have written and i could well be but from what i have read and researched that is what i had gotten on that bit of trivia i had written.
    I feel that i shall not be back to this forum and that is to bad as i have made some very nice folks on this forum that also go to the Curio and Relics Firearms Forum as well and i feel that i could have been benifical to helping this board with questions arising about some of the French C&R Firearms out there.
    I went out of my way to help mckheean get his question answered about type of scope and gun Oswald had and i answer some questions and i get insulted.
    I don't need that sort of treatment

    Patrick

    Vive La Belle France,Lebel y Poilu

    The Curio and Relic Firearms Forum

    Flhunter
    V.I.P. Forum Host
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    (8/4/02 2:46:57 pm)
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    Well said lebel.



    TallTLynn
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (8/4/02 3:21:38 pm)
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    ezSupporter
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    1886 has a point - he answered a question and got jumped on.

    Smokin Guns
    V.I.P. Member
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    (8/4/02 4:14:40 pm)
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    ...as Gomer Pyle would say LTS, shame, shame, shame.

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 847
    (8/4/02 4:22:04 pm)
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    There's room for everyone to express their opinions on this forum. Because some choose to disagree doens't mean they are jumping on someone else, "T".

    I respect 1886's opinion on french and italian firearms - just that I don't agree with that opinion, the same as he doesn't evidently agree with mine.

    So far, there have been no personal attacks, simply statements of opinion. Mike seems to feel strongly about the tumbling bullet issue, so perhaps he will elaborate. I've never known when the tumbling effect was first studied and applied - might be interesting to learn.

    Fellows, don't get huffy if someone disagrees - convince 'em with fact, or dazzle 'em with your footwork!
    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"

    TallTLynn
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 4386
    (8/4/02 5:08:47 pm)
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    ezSupporter
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    I stand by what I said kdub and don't intend to change what I think of this thread.

    It's one thing to disagree another to just say "magic bullet" and let's sell the brooklyn bridge and let us not forget the every favorite line of "BS" with no explanation.

    Opinions are like well you know what...we all have one.

    Flhunter
    V.I.P. Forum Host
    Posts: 1436
    (8/4/02 5:36:43 pm)
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    ezSupporter
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    kdub01 WHAT???

    Having a senior member and long time moderator/staff telling a brand new member that what he has written is BULL SHIITE. Is simply un-excusable. That is no way to treat new members. You kbud01 should condemn it and not make excuses calling it an "opinion". What kind of an opinion is "BS"? What ever happened to welcoming new members and making them feel accepted?

    Lebel I will not apologize for LTS, that should come from him and him alone but I will say that I am truly sorry as to the way you were treated here.







    The Curio and Relic Firearms Forum

    DOGolden
    Member
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    (8/4/02 6:23:30 pm)
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    IMHO it's not what you say, it's how you say it! Would you like a Tic-Tac can mean the same thing as your breath smells bad...


    the DOG

    GRRRRRRRrrrrrrr!

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 5642
    (8/4/02 6:28:26 pm)
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    Trivia
    Did any of you know that the Italians developed the Tumbling Round in 1899, and "the U.S.Military copied it, in later years with intro. of the 5.56"

    That is pure BS.........LTS



    What a bunch of sniveling whiners, I did not mention one thing about any of his help, only the trivia that I highlighted.
    If your feelings were hurt, get over it! Trivia, is supposed to be fact.....nothing could be further from the truth and this BS has been continued forever. Suggest you research it, maybe it will stick. If that`s the only thing you needed to quit, you are the petty one here. Defend your statement, or shut the.......up! Or you could just run away. I make no apology. LTS
  2. MPLTC

    MPLTC New Member

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    ALL: Just a little added history on this subject you might find interesting:
    I was a young teen when I saw an ad in American Rifleman from Kliens out of Ill. For $19.95 I could purchase the Itialian Carcano. For a dollar more, I could have it with a scope. I had my Dad order it and it arrived to our Los Angles home just three days before the infamous shooting. They announced the shooting at our school, then closed down the school for the day and we all went home. The entire family sat in my parents bedroom watching the TV just desatroyed that we lost our President.

    The next day, the rifle was id'd and that is when my Dad and I pulled the rifle out of the closet and begain to see if what was reported was true. We discovered that my rifle was an exact duplicate of the Oswald piece our being Serial Number C-2147, with the same optics as previously described, but the only difference was Lee Oswell added to his purchase a sling, and we did not. (Based on the time line, I had pirchased my rifle almost exactly two weeks after Oswell did).

    Later in the week , we bought some ammo from a surplus dealer is West Los Angeles and went to the Los Angeles Police Range up by Griffen Park. We explained what we had and were going to try and duplicate the shooting abilities of L.H. Oswell. The Range Master was totally enthused and allowed us on the range. After over an hour, we could not come close. We then turned it over to some range employees who really knew what they were doing, in fact one went and actually purchased some more ammo! After close to four hours, none could come close to what was reported in the news, and later in the official investigations, and these guys were total pro's. Since that time, I have never believed Oswell was a "lone shooter" (plus some additional informat that later turned up.)

    It may be a little shocking to some, but a very little know report was later found (and it is one some news film) - that got killed almost immediately - the Texas law man that initially found the rifle in the book warehouse, was seen holding it up and reporting that he found the rifle and it was a German Mauser! Now, it was later reported that this man was mistaken and the Itialian model was the only rifle seen and reported on. What is interesting is the man who found the weapon was also recomized gun collector and knew his weapons, but was immediately told he was wrong. Not long after, maybe less than a year, this same lawman was mysteriously killed in a shooting accident! Go figure.

    Just thought you all would like to hear this story.

    MPLTC
  3. Shooter45

    Shooter45 *Administrator* Staff Member

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    I fire lapped a barrel on an old Carcano ,smoothed the trigger, then glass bedded the action into a hand made full length stock. Missed a Deer about a month later with a 20 yard shot. I could never make that rifle shoot or hold a decent group.
    If anyone was ever killed by a Carcano, it was by accident. JMHO
  4. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    Yep, then of course JFK was really killed by the CIA, FBI, KGB, Texas Rangers, the Army, Navy and Marines, all acting in a conspiracy led by Richard Nixon and Glenn Beck. The reason on one noticed those hundreds of thousands of conspirators all firing at the same time was that the CIA used a Klingon cloaking device to cover up.

    (I have fired that same type of rifle with the same type of ammo and found it quite easy to hit a target the size of a man's head at 60 yards. But then, I can shoot a rifle and am not dedicated to proving some conspiracy theory.)

    Jim
  5. oscarmayer

    oscarmayer New Member

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    look kennedy was a creep of the highest order it would take a large arena to hold the suspects, yes i believe in a conspiracy but it's been proven time after time that shot with that type rifle could be made. it's been televised a number of times.
  6. 45Auto

    45Auto Active Member

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    While I know that we live in a far more crude and vulger society than ever before, calling a man like President Kennedy a "creep" is uncalled for.
  7. oscarmayer

    oscarmayer New Member

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    "uncalled for" why would that be he diddled movie stars while pretending to be a good catholic and honorable married man. he backed out at the last minute and caused the death of many cuban freedom fighter,On August 2, 1943, Kennedy's boat, the PT-109, along with PT-162 and PT-169, were ordered to continue a nighttime patrol near New Georgia in the Solomon Islands when it was rammed by the Japanese destroyer Amagiri. Kennedy was thrown across the deck, injuring his already-troubled back. Nonetheless, Kennedy gathered his men together and swam, towing a badly burned crewman by using a life jacket strap he clenched in his teeth. He towed the wounded man to an island and later to a second island from where his crew was subsequently rescued. For these actions, Kennedy received the Navy and Marine Corps Medal under the following citation:

    For extremely heroic conduct as Commanding Officer of Motor Torpedo Boat 109 following the collision and sinking of that vessel in the Pacific War Theater on August 1–2, 1943. Unmindful of personal danger, Lieutenant (then Lieutenant, Junior Grade) Kennedy unhesitatingly braved the difficulties and hazards of darkness to direct rescue operations, swimming many hours to secure aid and food after he had succeeded in getting his crew ashore. His outstanding courage, endurance and leadership contributed to the saving of several lives and were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.

    However, General Douglas MacArthur had a different opinion about the event: "Those PT boats carried only one torpedo [sic]. They were under orders to fire it and then get out. They were defenseless. Kennedy hung around, however, and let a Japanese destroyer mow him down. When I heard about it, I talked to his superior officer. He should have been COURT MARTIALED......Civil liberties
    In 1963, FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, who hated civil-rights leader Martin Luther King, Jr. and viewed him as an upstart troublemaker presented the Kennedy Administration with allegations that some of King's close confidants and advisers were communists. Concerned that the allegations, if made public, would derail the Administration's civil rights initiatives, Robert Kennedy warned King to discontinue the suspect associations, and later felt compelled to issue a written directive authorizing the FBI to wiretap King and other leaders of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, King's civil rights organization.
    i could go on and on i stand by my OPINION or him and his whole family and by my right to voice my opinion
  8. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    No matter what anyone said, PT boats carried four torpedoes. MacArthur had many failings, but I did think he could count.

    Jim
  9. oscarmayer

    oscarmayer New Member

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    true enough they carried 4 but on this mission they were loaded with one due to a shortage and not enough to arm the pt's on hand with a full load i doubted that macarthur quote as well but read it was a fact. i think it came from kennedys book on the ordeal.
  10. oscarmayer

    oscarmayer New Member

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    oh and for the record i retract my creep remark what i really wanted to say was douche bag...... very much like his brother teddy....
  11. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    FWIW, I think it has been pretty well established that JFK didn't think much of Ted's political ideas, or his expressing of them at the wrong time.

    Jim
  12. 45Auto

    45Auto Active Member

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    Oscarmayer,

    I don't understand why my expression of disapproval of your comment is in anyway a threat to your freedom of speech. It's a product of our times.

    Yes, I know about the things President Kennedy's enamys said about him. Some of them true, some false, and some of them clever distortions of reality. And, yes, he slept with Marilyn Monroe (eat your heart out Bill Clinton). Still, for all his faults I think President Kennedy was a great man.

    But I must say Oscarmayer you have lots of company. The political forces of our day seek to divide Americans into angry sub-groups. Inflamatory language like "creep" and "douche bag" to describe a popular president is the sort of thing that those who seek to divide us love to hear.

    However, remember that President Lincoln said, "a house divided against itself cannot stand." And thus I invite you as a friend to express yourself with less inflamitory retoric.
  13. oscarmayer

    oscarmayer New Member

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    well said and yes it's true. we are divided, but the facts are the facts, considering him a "great" prez is revisionist history. he won an election because nixon was a bumbling fool or at least seemed so in televised debates. the fact remains the country is divided and will always be . were you as thoughtful when the left tried to bash bush , paint him as a fool and idiot. it time to fight fire with fire no reason to take the high road if the other side isn't going to play fair, start calling a spade a spade ( no pun intended ) the bashing of conservitives has gotten out of hand it's high time the flaws of the libs get pointed out , even if it means throwing down on icons and. false idols like the kennedys who if they weren't rich from daddys bootleg money wouldn't of been a blip on the radar of history. oh how we've changed..... clinton got a hummer in the oval office and lied about it they went after him , not saying that was right or wrong but jfk fooled around on his wife, caused the deaths of many a freedom fighter in cuba by backing off a promise to support them and his brother teddy the alcoholic drive off a bridge and killed a innocent girl and they are suppose to be reverved ?
  14. oscarmayer

    oscarmayer New Member

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    hows this and i could post countless examples.......... In the wake of Glenn Beck's hugely successful Restoring Honor rally held in Washington, D.C. this weekend, the Huffington Post has published an offer of $100,000 to anyone with evidence that would destroy Beck's reputation and take him off the political/cultural battlefield. sound fair to you sound like the right souldn't defend itself ? sound in flamatory ?
  15. Shooter45

    Shooter45 *Administrator* Staff Member

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    If memory serves me correctly, most of the people in my area didn't think much of JFK and never had anything good to say about him. But, after his death, most of the people had a different opinion. I always thought that was kind of funny and never understood why they changed their minds. They seemed to do a complete turnaround in just a few days.
  16. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    Kennedy had little time to accomplish much of anything and a lot about his administration has yet to be really discussed, like the huge impact of Khruschev's "sand box" taunt.

    The fact is that on the morning of Nov. 22, 1963, Kennedy's popularity rating stood at a bit over 25%, much lower than Pres. Obama's today, and one of the lowest ratings since polling started. The reason he was in Dallas was to try to boost his ratings in that conservative state in anticipation of the 1964 election. It is sad but true that it was his assassination made him a popular and beloved president.

    Jim
  17. 45Auto

    45Auto Active Member

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    A common failure which has lead to the decline and fall of once great civilizations and nations is internal division.

    On Our Future Head Stone:

    In another 100 years (or less) World historians will look back at the decline of the USA and the rise of China as the world's greatest super power. They will say that the US suffered from internal divisions of tragic proportions. The Chinese exploited the divided USA. China grew strong from the greed of a few Americans who sold out the long term interests of the USA for short term profits. All of this happening while confused Americans argued over pointless drivel.

    Remember folks, united we stand divided we fall.


    The high road is the only road for the well informed patriot.
  18. Buffalochip

    Buffalochip Member

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    Oswald was actually an excellent shot, had practiced with the Carcano, and none of the shots he took were that diffficult--even without a scope--except for the first, when the target was moving from left to right. Long ago I calculated that if the vehicle was traveling 10 mph and the distance was 90 ft or so, with muzzle velocity of about 2,000 fps., the bullet would have passed behind Kennedy's head by several inches even if Oswald was panning the shot with the crosshairs on his ear.

    After for years thinking Oswald was not the lone gunner, nothing points to anyone else. There is NO evidence of a shot coming from the front or from the grassy knoll. The doctors who did the original autopsy published an article in early 1990s in the New England Journal of Medicine (in answer to the movie JFK) in which they pointed out that after removing what was left of Kennedy's brain, they examined the inside of the skull and the bullet hole showed typical cavitation where the bullet exited the skull bone and entered his brain. Any shooter on this forum is familiar with that phenomenon. I have a copies of and have read both the Warren Report and William Manchester's "The Death of a President" and have loads of other material in a Kennedy file.
  19. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    The Chinese don't need to exploit our divisions, they only need to keep loaning us money to keep our greedy government and greedy people from going under. The worst is that in return for buying our worthless paper, they demanded and got total and almost exclusive access to our markets.

    Worse, there is a rumor that the U.S. government has agreed to destroy any American company that tries to compete with the Chinese, using any means necessary. Ever notice the number of U.S. companies that suddenly have problems with the SEC, or the FDA, or EPA, or OSHA or any of the dozens of other agencies that have the power to ruin companies that pose a threat to Chinese monopoly?

    But that means unemployed Americans; won't the unions do something? Not as long as the union bosses (leftists already sympathetic to Communist China) keep getting big bucks from the government to sit back and say nothing while their members hit the welfare lines.

    Jim
  20. 45Auto

    45Auto Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2008
    Messages:
    1,232
    Jim,

    You could be onto something. For that matter, the members of the board of the four corporations who own 80% of our major media outlets (conservative and liberal) are either forigners themselves or have strong ties to forign interests. For good reason, it's not talked about all that much.
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