Modifying C&R transferred firearms

Discussion in 'Curio & Relics Forum' started by Buckaroo Banzai, Mar 19, 2007.

  1. Tom Militano

    Tom Militano New Member

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    e3mrk. I appreciate the replies and the help, but if you remove a weapon from your bound book can you sell it if it's been modified? You said "I believe" and "Leads one to believe" in your reply. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, so please don't take it that way, but not being able to really interpet what we're allowed to do can lead to problems. A CZ52 in 9mm is not in it's original configuration, neither is the sportorized 91/30. Thanks for the replies.
  2. e3mrk

    e3mrk New Member

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    The CZ-52 is considered a curio & relic by the BATF and is on the BATF's C&R list for collectors with C&R Federal Firearms License. Note that only the original caliber of 7.62x25 and not the 9mm conversions are considered C&R. Converting your 7.62x25 to 9mm is a gray area as far as its C&R status. However, there's nothing illegal about the conversion. If You Have The Original Barrel You Can Reinstall It For A Sale And Just Put The 9mm In The Box With The Pistol.
    I have Heard That The 9mm Conversion Was Also Done At The Factory And That Should Change Things Legally.
    Your Best Bet Would Write The ATF And Explain This To Them And See What They Say.
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2007
  3. TRAP55

    TRAP55 New Member

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    One small flaw there, read the last three words, and read the definitions.


    WHAT ARE CURIOS OR RELICS?

    As set out in the regulations (27 CFR 178.11), curios or relics include firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

    1.) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
    2.) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
    3.) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.



    Importation Restrictions

    Licensed collectors may lawfully import curio or relic firearms other than surplus military firearms, nonsporting firearms, and NFA weapons. [A surplus military firearm is defined as one that belonged to a regular or irregular military force at any time. Alteration of the firearm does not change its status. Therefore, a sporting firearm with a surplus military frame or receiver is a surplus military firearm, because a frame or receiver is classified as a firearm as described in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3).] Surplus military firearms are generally prohibited from importation under 18 U.S.C. § 925(d)(3). However, 18 U.S.C. § 925(e) authorizes licensed importers (FFL type 08 or 11) to import surplus military rifles, shotguns, and handguns classified as curios or relics; provided that such handguns are generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes. Nonsporting handguns are those pistols and revolvers that do not meet size and safety prerequisites, or which do not accrue a qualifying score on ATF Form 4590, "Factoring Criteria for Weapons." Surplus military firearms classified as curios or relics must be in their original military configuration to qualify for importation.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2007
  4. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    Yeah, Tom, they have had them for a while, as have several other Dealers.

    And Centerfire Sytems, the ones whi make the ATI stuff, used to (I don't get their catalogues any more, so I don know if they still do...) offer SKS in the synthetic stocks as CR as well...

    I guess i'm going to have to go back and reread my regs, but I feel uncomfortable about the "transfering them off the books into your private collection and then they are not regulated..."

    What's the reason for even KEEPING a bound book then? Putting that notation on ANY CR firearm you own and then selling them at a gun show or flea market to any Tom Dick or Harry with no records, could not be checked, and I just see THAT as a way to get into a LOT of trouble....
  5. Yup, like spending a few winters in Marion, Illinois. :eek:
  6. Joe W

    Joe W New Member

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  7. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Seems to me that you can count on the BATFE to take the 'worst possible' attitude, and perspective, on C&R, just as they do on NFA weapons.
    An example; the L1-A1, an built in Lithgow, Auasralia, was NEVER built in any configuration but as a semi auto rifle. BUT, the Aussies also built a heavy barreled version, the L2-A1, which was selective fire, and both are the offspring of the FN-FAL, which, excepting a special run in the late seventies, of semi auto 'Match Rifles', and a few "G series" FAL's, all were selective fire.
    On the L1-A1, BATFE takes the attitude that the receiver is the weapon, and, 'once a machine gun, always a machine gun!', on the subject. The fact that these rifles never were machine guns, never enters the discussion, but the arguement 'too easily converted', does! Seems to me, owning several shotguns, and a hacksaw, might well encourage prosecution for a 'short barreled shotgun', as that would make them too, 'to easy to convert'! Sorta like having a penis, making one a rapist, in logic!
    The G-series rifles have become, accordingly, as the match rifles always were, very pricey, in the $3-4 K, range, if they are legit.
    A fellow named Joe Poyer contracted to have built some 'L1-A1A' rifles, without a cut, in the receiver, for the 'safety' (FN's Term), or 'trip' BATFE's), sear, and paid for them, in advance.
    When they arrived, they were immediately impounded in the Customs Warehouse, by BATFE, whom Joe had previously gotten the official 'Blessing' from, at the outset.
    Two years, two Federal Lawsuits, claiming 'extreme financial hardship' should the rifles not be released to him, and he finally got them, but was allowed to import no more, notwithstanding that their mere release constituted an admission by Federal Judges, AND the BATFE, that they were NOT machine guns.
    Today, these 184 Rifles are the rarest of the FAL's, that number being their total production; IF one came to market, I would expect it to bring in excess of $5K.
    But, look at the pattern; Old Joe had an idea for making a bit of money; He went to the BATFE, and asked for their approval, which was given; He put his money into an 'approved' enterprise, waited 18 months, in which two 'Suits' traded desks within BATFE, and finds that the "Official" view of the entire agency depends on the whim of the guy at one desk; is then caused to spend a lot more money, to get the court order that made them honor the original, documented, agreement. Had he put 'all' his money, into thr rifle deal, he would have none for the lawsuits that followed, and would have lost 'all' his money!
    In the period in which this happened, there were NO changes in law, only 'attitude', of the BATFE; everything in the rifle, except the receiver, met their approval; in this case, one part was the issue-worst case!
    I'm no expert, on C&R regs, but would submit that if a C&R weapon achieves it's status out of unique features, rarity, or collector interest, anything, even the engraving of a Driver's License #, under a grip scale, "might" lose it such status, out of reducing 'collector interest', by the non'original, though hidden, markings; altering the 'configuration', or features, of the weapon, thereby destroying it's 'originality', which was the reason it 'made the list'.
    I don't know the laws well enough to offer a legal opinion, but, an Agency, tasked by Congress, to do a specific job, in a 'statutorily prescribed way', and then going merrily about their business, expanding like a tumor, and making up the rules, as they go along, certainly deserves the same handling I would afford a very large rattlesnake, in a very small room.
    Even if you are right, do you want to be 'dead right', locked in a little room, for a very long time, because you lacked the funds to prove it???
    My attitude is that I do not want to talk to a cop, 'on business', and the 'Alphabet Cops' are absolutely the worst of the breed.
    If you want a 'Pre Ban' looking rifle, suck it up, pay the price, and buy a 'pre ban ' rifle; It's still much cheaper than a lawyer, later!
    Bottom line, from me, is to stay out of any questionable situation, with that bunch, unless you have lots of time and money you wish to part with!
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2007
  8. Tom Militano

    Tom Militano New Member

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    And we still have no difinitive answer. I still think a fifty year old gun is just as effective as a new one, maybe not as accurate in some cases, but still a gun, so why a class 1 and a class 3 license? Kind of stupid to me. I can go to Walmart and buy a new gun without a license, but I need a license to buy most fifty year old guns. Go figure.
  9. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Tom, you need no license, and you know it, to buy a 50 year old gun, or a new one.
    The 03 license allows you to buy, sell, ship, and receive certain listed arms, from or to states you do not live in, without filling out a 4473, waiting on a NICS check, paying transfer fees, both ways, to an 01 Licensee.
    There was a time (I have no idea of your age) when one could, if he had the funds, and could write (no internet, then) order a new gun, long or short, from Sears, or an old one, fom Navy Arms, and the Post office would just deliver it, to the door.
    Then somebody shot and killed JFK, with an allegedly 'Mail Order' rifle (the truth of which will, likely, never be known), and the 'feces hit the ventilator', so to speak, in Congress!
    Face it, Dude, It's about 'control'!
    Never mind, that the existing law, then, IF ENFORCED, would have been adequate, as it addressed the 'use of the tool, by the workman', rather than regulating the tool.
    Laws are the way 'Government' implements 'control', when they feel threatened!
    The 'flip side', is this: if everybody observed the present laws, simple physics, ie, the law of inertia, would preclude the passing of more!
    eg: 'Everything is running smoothly, we look good, don't 'rock the boat'.
    Witness the Reagan Years.
    Sideways, as analogy.
    I raise and train what you may know, as 'red' or 'blue', Heelers, properly, Australian Cattle Dogs; they are a loyal, protective of their 'person', breed, suspicious of all others; it's no issue, at all, for one of my 50# dogs, to put your ton of 'ill mannered' Bull, in the trailer, on command.
    This is a really 'cost effective' situation.
    Now, look at the news.
    Pit bulls, are currently recieving the 'bad rap', formerly reserved for Rotts, and Dobies, as 'Overly aggressive, dangerous, animals', an undeserved reputation, to be sure, but swallowed, hook, line, and sinker, by the 'non dog' public, just as 'gun laws' were!
    Laws are being passed, daily, about them. Their possession, confinement, ...ad nauseum.
    Yet, my little ACD's, would put one 'on the trailer' in a moment, with no hassle.
    Point is, my dogs work to my direction, for their 'daily bread'; they perform because they were bred to do what they do, on command; the responsibility of the 'workman, not the tool'.
    I have but one need of firearms, and that is to protect the dogs; in 'day to day' living, the dogs are more than enough; hurt one of them, and we can get serious, about Jesus.
    I spent, this year, more money on them, at the vet's, than on myself, for medical care, so you may detect a small 'bias', here. But, for all of that, in town, the dogs still require a 'license'.
    Go figger.
  10. Tom Militano

    Tom Militano New Member

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    Stash257, I'm 66 years old. I kind of got off track on my last post. My big question, still, is how they can sell C&R guns that are modified into sporters, and still sell them as C&R guns? I know it saves on a lot of paperwork and extra money by having a C&R license so they can be shipped to my home. I used to have an 01 license when I was building custom stocks, but I quit stockmaking and now make custom knives. By the way, I've seen ACD's work. Very impressive dogs.
  11. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Tom, I am not sure how it is done; my take would be, it's not legal, but they have not yet pushed the envelope, hard enough.
    A 1903 Springfield does not qualify, C&R, but suppose it did.
    Would then, a Sedgely Sporter, made from such a rifle, NOT qualify? In essence, it would be a 'modified' C&R, and should not, yet it is a far rarer and more desireable collectible, than the original Rifle!
    'Governmental logic', by definition, is like 'Military Intelligence', an oxymoron, by definition, but one I have no desire to challenge, out of the potential costs involved, should I guess different than they did!
    I'm not sure anyone will ever know the answer.

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