Mosin Nagant Twist rate and bullet weights

Discussion in 'The Ammo & Reloading Forum' started by AngelDeville, Nov 25, 2007.

  1. AngelDeville

    AngelDeville New Member

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    I'm planning on loading my own for my Nagants and was wondering what bullet weights are ideal for the 1:10 ???? twist rate?


    I'm imagining I should be between 150-200 grains.

    I plan on casting my own and trying gas-checked Wheel weights to start, and stepping up to Hardball or Linotype if needed.
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2007
  2. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

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    AngelDeville:

    Here's some unsolicited advice:

    Slug the barrel to determine the dimensions of the bore and depth of the lands. Although the nomenclature of the bullet, 7.62, would lead you to believe the bullet diameter should be .308, that's wrong. Most M-N, apparently based on mine and others inputs who own them, slug to between .312 to .314 inches across the grooves of the barrel. Some inquires to Hornady and others indicated that to use .308 Jacketed bullets the diameter across the grooves bottoms should be .308 inches. (On a slug from the barrel that is the diameter across the largest point). Mine were .312 and they suggested British Enfield 303 Brit Jacketed bullets which mike out to .310 inches. There are no readily available bullets that would be the perfect size, apparently. I ended up using Remington 303 Enfield bullets that miked out at .310 and they shoot as well as you can expect, I would think, for the M-N. The Winchester commercial ammo I have for the M-N has bullets that mike out to .310 inches, too.

    When you use cast bullet you may be able to get closer to correct, whatever that is for cast bullet in your bore. Some research may be necessary to get the right diameter bullets, what ever that size might be (??).

    LDBennett
  3. AngelDeville

    AngelDeville New Member

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    Slugging is definitely in order, and usually .001 over bore diameter is good for cast bullets. I got lucky with both my Nagants and the bore is pretty nice on both, and just a cursory check with a tornado bore brush, give me about equal resistance so I'm assuming they are close enough that one size of bullet will do for both.

    My M44 is going to get a little "sporterized" and we'll see how she does on hogs and deer next year.

    I have always heard that certain twist rates are better with certain weights of bullets, but never paid much attention to the info, and can't seem to find an answer with my internet searching.

    Here are my bullet choices I have narrowed it down to... all would be used with a gas check and loaded to get between 2200-2500 fps

    My first choice is a 180 grain tapered round nose

    second is a 170 grain round nose

    a distant third is a 190 grain with a tapered-round-nose-flat-point that looks like it would need to be seated too deeply in the case....
  4. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

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    The barrel twist required is normally based on the Greenhill Formula. The twist rate is dependent on the bullet diameter and the bullet length and has little to do with the velocity or the weight of the bullet.

    The formula is 150 times the bullet diameter squared divided by the bullet length (all measured in inches). Here's two sites that will give the details:

    http://www.z-hat.com/twistrate.htm

    http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/July01.htm

    So, first you have to determine the diameter of you gun's bore (bottom of land to bottom of land). Then you have to determine what bullet molds you can get to determine the bullet length. Then do the Greenhill Formula to see if those bullet will stabilize in you barrel's twist rate. M-N standard issue bullets seem to be in the range of 150 grains to more than 180 grains (the bullet weight of my Winchester commercial ammo and the Remington bulk bullet for 303 Brit Enfield that shoot OK in my M-N).

    LDBennett
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2007
  5. AngelDeville

    AngelDeville New Member

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    Great links! thanks, it looks like the 180 grainer will do nicely.

    I was searching for MN info specifically and that's why I didn't find the info...:eek:
  6. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    Angel, I've been using some Prvi Partisan 150 gr SP sized .310 bullets in my reloads for my sporterized 44s, and while I have gotten as little as 1 3/8 inch groups, averaging between 1 1/2 and 1 3/4, at 100 from the FACTORY Prvi loads with this same bullets, using it as a component with 4064 I have yet to get under 2"....

    I'm wondering the same thing, if a 180 gr might be best, I hear a lot of guys get good results from the 20 inch M44 and 38 barrels with the heavier bullets, while they claim better groups from the 150s out of longer 91/30 barrels.

    Many guys claim you should ALWAYS try some loads with .308 bullets FIRST, just in case you have the "mythical" Mosin that likes them, and can thus get better components easier, BUT While I have HEARD guys have them, I haven't SEEN one yet...;)
  7. AngelDeville

    AngelDeville New Member

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    I have a few 150 grain .308 spitzers I'll probably send downrange while I'm getting my casting gear out of mothballs, but I'm not expecting much out of them....

    Gotta find some decent brass as well, and dies.....:eek:
  8. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    Lee makes dies in their standard form, for like $21, any other makes are substantially more, if not even "custom..."

    I had some trouble getting mine set up just right, bent up some cases until I got it set up correctly, but it works fine now...

    I did the same thing, I had some 150 gr .308 "Bronze Points" in an old inherited reloading box that I loaded up just to try through my two scoped M44s. but I got 4" out of the polish, and about 7" out of the Russian...:cool:

    As far as cases, I have 40 Winchester Cases (which are actually Sellior and Bellot, made in The Czech Republic,) 20 Igmans, and 40 Prvi Partisan cases. I just bought 2 more boxes of the Winchester 180 gr FMJ factory loads, mainly for the cases.

    On several of the other CR Forums where they talk about reloading for it, they don't like the Winchester or Sellior and Bellot cases, because they claim they don't last long without re-annealing them, because they are brittle...but I have shot some of them 3 or 4 times already and haven't had the first crack.

    The Prvi is supposed to be the best, it's the same factory that is now making all the expensive Wolf "Gold" ammo...it can be tough to find in factory loading, because it sells so fast (it's the most accurate factory ammo for the x54 I have found) but when you do it's usually available in both the 150 and 180 gr SP loadings.

    Prvi also sells components, but all I have found so far at shows is the .310 150 gr. SP boattail bullets...
  9. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

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    The word from Hornady and one other bullet maker (can't remember who I contacted ??) was that the key is for jacketed bullets to be the diameter of the depth of the lands. So if you slug the barrel and the largest part of the slug (diameter of bottom of the lands) turns out to be greater than .308 inches then you are wasting your time loading up .308 bullets. Mine was .314 inches and I wasted my time trying to shoot 308 bullets. Hornady suggested their .310 Enfield 303 Brit bullets. The Winchester's bullets in their commercial ammo are .310 inches and the surplus ammo my son-in-law has is also .310 inches. I guess those Ruskies used their own calipers or micrometers to measure the bullets and 0.002 to 0.004 inches is all the precision their measuring device could muster (???).

    Anyway I think slugging the barrel is required or just shoot the 303 Brit bullets at .310 inches and call it good enough. If you have the last batch of M-N's that were made after the WWII I was told they were set up for 308 bullet (?????).

    LDBennett
  10. AngelDeville

    AngelDeville New Member

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    I found that RCBS makes dies, and I'm considering buying some Winchester Ammo to use for the cases. Cases are looking to be about $1 each, and loaded ammo is about $1.25 each....
  11. AngelDeville

    AngelDeville New Member

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    I went to the range this past sunday, and a nearby shooter was shooting Winchester ammo, and he doesn't re-load:D

    So I ended up with 66 once fired cases!

    I picked up my dies last night!
  12. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    You lucky dog!

    I picked up two boxes of Winchester 180 grain FMJ x54 from a box at a table with a sign marked "Make an offer, closeout ammo", for $10 a box, at last months Indy 1500 show.

    Make sure you try the Prvi Partisan ammo if you can find it, it's the most accurate x54 factory ammo I've shot so far, in both 150 and 180 gr, but it's getting harder to find, shooters are on to it and buy it all up as soon as another shipment hits the market...it's the same stuff as the Wolf Gold.


    AIM advertised it in their last flyer, I drove over there the very day I got it in the mail to buy some and they were already out.....:eek:
  13. AngelDeville

    AngelDeville New Member

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    Midway has more of the Winchester stuff, for under $20 a box, I'll pick some of that up as soon as I get some more $$$$. the only brass I have been able to find is on Midway, and it costs as much as loaded ammo.

    I'm hunting locally for some Linotype, and I still need to decide on a bullet mould, but it's down to 185-200 grains. and I have gas checks on the list too.

    My 91/30 shot pretty well with some Yugo light ball, that the local shop had, it was brass cased but unfortunately berdan primed.

    I got about 3" groups at 100yds shooting at a 50yd pistol target. most of that was user error.
  14. Mosin_Nagant_Fan

    Mosin_Nagant_Fan Active Member

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    All the surplus ammo I used was 147-148 grain FMJ light ball and worked perfectly (even if I did not).
  15. AngelDeville

    AngelDeville New Member

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    A trip to the range today yielded 1.5" groups at 100yds wth my Loverin 180gr gas checked cast bullet!

    estimated velocity is about 2000fps with 35 grains of 3031.

    once I modify my scope mount so it stops shootng right, I'll chrono the load and post up some target pics.

    [​IMG]
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