Mosin Nagant

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by tdl, Dec 31, 2005.

  1. tdl

    tdl New Member

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    I am in ownership of a Mosin Nagant 7.62 Rifle/ It was obtained by my father in Korea in 1951. It has inscribed 1942 with a Russian hammer and sickle.The stock has never been altered . Its in very good condition as far as I can tell/. I know they were a peasant rifle built fairly cheap designed for The russian people to defend there homeland . Is it even worth selling? dont know a value. Or should I just keep it to deer hunt.
  2. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    Omigod, a REAL Mosin, not an import?

    I'll give you $50 for it right now, sight unseen!

    Seriously, if it is a real battlefield pickup, it is worth substantially more than any of the ones "flooding" the market since the fall of the wall and the desperate need for cash in the former USSR. The easiest way to check if it really isn't an import is to look for the mandatory importer's stamp somewhere near the chamber or under the front of the barrel. If it's "clean," it's a keeper.

    Unless its a short carbine, which would make it an M38 for that year, we have to assume it's a 91/30 "long" rifle, The hammer and sickle is actually an arsenal marking, signifying it was made at Ishvesk Arsenal, which is the most common version. One from that year made at Tula would have a Star instead of the hammer and sickle, but there wasn't very many made at Tula that year since they moved all the machinery away from the German advance, incidentally, to Ishvesk, so even if it had the star, it was probably made at Ishvesk on formerlyTula machinery.

    1942 was actually a pretty good year, it should show some minor changes from pre-war models as they simplified design because of the war, but not yet the "rough" wartime ones they started making in 1943.

    I have a 1942 and a 1943 from Ishvesk that show a world of difference in finish, stock, machining, etc, but both are great shooters. But BOTH are imports...

    Recently imported 91/30s generally go for $75 to $125 at shows and on the auctions if in good shape. Many "rearsenaled" in excellent condition with pouches, cleaning kits and bayonet go for about $100 or so now. BUT if in fact yours is indeed without import marks, and in NRA VG condition, I would guess it's worth maybe an extra $100 or so to collectors, so figure somewhere between $175 to $225. Then again, just MAYBE it has some other markings like cartouches, or NKA markings, so it could be worth a little more.

    You know, while it will make a great shooter, if it was mine, I just might put it away and go buy a recent generic import for $75 or $100 and shoot IT to see what it is like, and keep the other the way it is. It will appreciate in value more quickly than the ones we usually see or feel.

    And the MN is NOT a "cheap" design by any means; yes it is SIMPLE and RELIABLE (peasant proof?) but you will also find them ALL to be "surprisingly" accurate. Most all other Milsurp you will find as "reasonably" accurate, but that old MN will surprise you. Even many old ratty dark bores I've fired will print 2-3"" all day at 100. Even "awful-hand," no sling, rapid fire! Those krauts learned to respect pretty quickly that old Mosin, and learned to FEAR the snayperskaya with it.

    Another thing, the MN is one of the very few Milsurp rifles you will find with rear sights that start at 100m, so you can plink or hunt at normal ranges from 25 to 100 yards at the lowest setting and aim dead-on, not like 2 feet low like you have to do with most Mausers or the like which have 300m as the lowest setting,

    That cartridge, too, is the oldest cartridge STILL IN SERVICE. It's still the issue sniper round and MMG round of the Russian army and most of the former Soviet republics, along with China and NK. It's still a pretty decent round. (plus it's available CHEAP in surplus. $40/440 rounds is the norm.) You cannot find a cheaper full power milsurp rifle to shoot. Plus reloadable factory ammo is available from Winchester, and several European firms, suitable for hunting, and even it is relatively cheap.

    The ONLY bad thing about the design is the safety, and the fact they are tough to scope, due to the straight bolt and the split receiver. I think the Russians were competing with the Japs for the "worst safety design." It's "positive," but next to impossible to work with gloves, and it cannot be turned on or off with one hand. You have to learn to "decock" pointed in a safe direction, and either rock the bolt up and down to cock if you're in a hurry, or use the cocking piece as a cocker. They make various scope mounts that work easily, but you either have to alter the bolt or use a long eye relief scope. I am still trying to find a workable "side mount" for one, because I thing that is just the ticket- you wouldn't have to alter the bolt, and you could still use stripper clips.

    If you can post some pictures of it, I would really enjoy seeing it! I just love those old Mosins- in fact, tonight I just let off my traditional Mosin Nagant New Years back yard salute- five rounds rapid fire through my 1941 M38 cavalry carbine! :cool:
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2006
  3. rangerruck

    rangerruck New Member

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  4. Xracer

    Xracer *TFF Admin Staff Mediator*

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    Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet!
    Hi tdl.....welcome to TDL.

    You're lucky. Polishshooter has just returned to TFF and he is THE Expert on Moisin Nagents!

    Welcome back Polish! :D
  5. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    What's the smiley thing for blushing? :p :mad: :eek:

    I'm no expert, just an opinionated Polak who has owned around a hundred or so MNs since I started buying them, and learned about them from scratch (Heck, when I started I called them MOISINS I was so green...you can probably find a few posts in the archives where I was just plain WRONG too!) like anybody else, read a few books, visited a few websites, listened to others, experimented, and learned from my mistakes and will learn from mistakes yet to come. (Yeah, like more than a couple I sold I wish to heck I still had....)

    If I help anybody else who's just starting out, fine, but I'm still learning too. Anybody who thinks they know everything about anything usually doesn't know spit....And if I can keep some budding MN shooter or collector from making some of my boners so much the better.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2006
  6. tdl

    tdl New Member

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    Thanks Polish Shooter for all your help You too rangerruck and Xracer. Your knowledge is appreciated! I am going to double check the markings like you said. I know my dad killed a few deer with it in the 50s and 60s. He said it shot great/ he used Norma ammo. I had heard a Belgian man designed those rifles?
  7. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    Emil Nagant was Belgian, and designed the magazine and feed system, but Colonel Sergei Mosin designed the actual bolt action and the ingenious interrupter...or maybe I got that backwards, been a while since I read the book... :cool:

    Mosin was a pretty good arms designer already for the Tsar, and the Tsar had a thing for Nagant's designs, so ordered the good Colonel to collaborate with him, but interestingly the Russians didn't honor Mosin for his design work until the SOVIETS did it in the 20s, which is kind of strange since they didn't honor anything Tsarist, even grinding off Tsarist markings off rifles, the Imperial Army just referred to the rifles as the Model 91, or the Model 1907 Carbine, or else the Model 91 Cossack or the Model 91 Dragoon rifle. When the commies adopted the modified Dragoon as the new infantry rifle in 1930, they then start to refer to it as the Mosin-Nagant Model 91/30.

    But when they finally did name the rifle, they of COURSE had to put the good Russky first, instead of Nagant-Mosin ;)

    But then again, when the Imperial Army bought the Nagant revolver design in 1895 and changed it a little, they called it the Nagant Model 95, go figure.

    Yeah, back when your Dad hunted with it, the ammo would have been VERY hard to find, Norma was probably the only company loading it. The Russians wouldn't have sold anything abroad, unless you of course were in some leftist third world guerrilla group that either was too backward or not commie enough to get AKs.

    Plus they had to save up all that old ammo in the salt mines so they could eventually sell it to us after 1989... :)
  8. rangerruck

    rangerruck New Member

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    genious! your on fire! im pretty new to the mosins, but i have to say i have had several types of other military weapons, and i have an affinity for these simply elegant, rugged, rifles. the round is pretty much good for everything coyote sized and up! the one i have now im pretty proud of , an unissued unfired( 'till i did) 38, all match numbers, izzy made. shoots like a dream, molycoated up the action and bore, super slick, did the little trigger trick, no more creep, with about a 4 to 5 lb. pull.
  9. LIKTOSHOOT

    LIKTOSHOOT Advanced Senior Member

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    Kinda wordy ain`t ya Polish...........



    LTS
  10. tdl

    tdl New Member

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    I noticed several markings and numbers on various parts of rifle, however I was unable to determine what they meant. Did check out the link rangerruck gave me and the only similiar mark on rifle was the triangle below EL6578 just ahead of the bolt about 3 inches. Inside the triangle appears to be a small arrowor something. Its very small/
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2006
  11. rangerruck

    rangerruck New Member

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    that means it was made itn the iszevsk plant, mstly nto valuable, but yours is more so allready as it is a field pickup. get a mag glass copy down all numbers, letters markings you see, then go to the mosin links i posted again to try to figure what you have, at least try to det a date stamp. her is also a good mosin site.
    http://www.surplusrifle.com/mosincarbine/index.asp
  12. tdl

    tdl New Member

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    Thanks rr I notice an import stamp and a date stamp is 1943. No real value but nice to have all the same
  13. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    What is the import stamp?

    THAT may still tell us a better date of when it came in, because while now there are many importers, back then there probably weren't many!

    A 1943 Mosin is REALLY interesting! They cut all kinds of corners in the factories like everyone did during the war, starting in late 1942, until the end of production in 1944, and 1943 is the best year, the war was still touch and go, so they were cranking out the rifles and shipping them (sometimes CARRYING them) from the plant to the front.

    The NEAT thing is they were no "last ditch" crappy rifles like the Japs or Germans made! My 1943 shoots the best of all the 91/30s I have! Lot's of other guys say their 43s are the best shooters too!

    First, you ought to be able to see a bunch of rough machining marks on the receiver. No time to waste for POLISHING!!!

    Second, it should be a "high wall" receiver...Pre-war and post-war MNs had a machined cutout on the left side of the receiver, usually almost in line with the bottom of the bolt. No TIME for that with "Hitlerites" to shoot! So they left that side of the reciever the same height as the rest of it (Actually, some guys say that makes them much easier to put a side mount on!) ( I'll tell you when I track down a good side mount for one of my high-wall M44s, that's one of my QUESTS!)

    Finally, the stock will PROBABLY not (it may, but probably not) fit any other MN action very well. It will work, but there will be gaps and tight places all over the place. Just about ANY extra machining to the receiver and other metal parts is omitted, meaning lots of straight lines, so time was saved even inletting the stock.

    You can also find variations in shape, comb, drop etc of a 1943 to a pre-war too. I guess they weren't too picky on stock dimensions either when the Nazis were close..

    Also, a real wartime MN stock will probably have NO metal escutcheons or even those little metal half plates to reinforce the sling holes...just wood baby!

    I have a 1941 (somewhere else I said 42, but I just looked again, sorry!)(maybe if I CLEANED them more I would have remembered... :cool: ) Ishvesk with brass fittings on the handguard (they could be blued sheet metal, "raw" sheetmetal, brass, and somebody told me he's seen copper!) (They used whatever sheet metal they had to stamp them out) I also have the 43, which also has brass ends on the handguard, and it's fun to display them side by side and try to see all the differences between Pre-war and wartime!

    Ranger is right too, the arrow in the triangle is the Ishvesk arsenal marking...if you look REALLY close with a glass, you will probably find it stamped somewhere on just about every metal piece on the rifle, trigger, bolt, bolt handle, floorplate, even the buttplate, if it was made at Ishvesk! Heck, maybe even the stock!



    And one more thing,,,,,

    Don't EVER say it has no value! It's a Mosin Nagant! That rifle just MAYBE potted a few Nazi Pigs in it's time! Even my $9.95 parts M44s I bought a while ago had value, at least to ME! :)


    Sorry LTS, it was wordy.... AGAIN. I'll try to keep 'em short like I used to... :cool:
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2006
  14. tdl

    tdl New Member

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    I tried taking pictures with my digital camera but could not get it to focus for close in shots of the numbers etc. Under the 1943 its El 1657. On the bottom side of the clip it has HA7306 and on the butt end of the stock (which is metal of course its E 1657. Also as you said several plant markings on weapon. (triangle with arrow.) Also just as you said the machining is very rough! Also on butt of stock I notice 8806 with kind of a line thru it. The sights are numbered 19 down to 1 on the left and 20 down to 2 on the right, but counting by twos on the right. My other question is ( and I am very dumb when it comes to this) is why are there american numerals on a russian rifle?
  15. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    Those are actually "Arabic" numerals, other people get to use them too. :)

    NUMBERING is usually pretty universal on all military rifles from anywhere, but the MEASUREMENT signified by those numbers can vary, such as are they yards or meters.

    Just be glad you don't have a REALLY old MN-the M91s they made during the Tsarist times were marked in ARSHINI...which is an archaec Russian measure that roughly means "the length of the Tsar's stride." (I hope ALL the Tsar's walked the same way!)

    Anyway, I guess they figured the illiterate peasants that would be FIRING those old rifles probably didn't know anything about meters or yards but could figure out PACES.


    Anyway, what you have is a "mismatched" rifle. Now all the "uppity" Mauser guys are now turning up their pointy noses and looking away making some type of guttural nasally sound in their throats, but IGNORE them, they're IGNORANT of history AND military rifles :cool: ... they like those flimsy complicated inaccurate rifles just because they're GERMAN and WE ALL KNOW that EVERYTHING German is like superior to ANYTHING else :p ...and if Mausers don't match they like will probably blow up or something...:cool:


    With a Mosin Nagant, if it saw ANY Field service at all, it PROBABLY will be a mismatch! In fact, if it DOES match, it was either "Unissued" (which is HIGHLY unlikely,) or renumbered, either at an arsenal where tons of them were refurbished after the war then placed in storage, or else in some mauser numbnut's basement with an electropencil so he could sell it to another mauser numbnut as "matching..." and make an extra $5. :)


    I was told, by several different collectors, essentially the same story years ago, that the way the Imperial Army and the Soviets cleaned their rifles in the field at the company level was to get big drums of water boiling, then the soldiers would strip the rifles down and put the parts in the drums. and boil the bejeezus out of them. Then after a while, they would reach in, pull out the "appropriate" parts they needed and reassemble "a" rifle that they then wiped down, put the rod down the bore a few times, and doused with oil. Since the peasants of the Tsar, as well as the prolitariate workers BLESSED by wonders of a socialist education were both illiterate, they probably couldn't read the numbers or letters anyway, and it didn't matter because the darn thing would go back together and shoot as well as it did before they cleaned it!


    SOOOOoooo....a "mismatched" rifle is the NORM, and is a GOOD indicator that it saw RUSSIAN service at least...and was not "rearsenaled..." and it would fit the "battlefield pickup" story....


    ALL of my 91/30s are in what I call "dropped in the rubble only once" condition (Except my 1943, THAT guy must have lived through the war and made SURE it didn't get dropped!) and are ALL mismatched. I like to think I have a direct link with them back to fighting in Stalingrad or Leningrad or whatever... But the "new" rearsenaled ones on the market, while in GREAT shape, all match.....
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2006
  16. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    And what about the "importer's stamp?" What does that say? I'm wondering if maybe there ISN'T one, which would back up your Father's story even more...

    An import stamp SHOULD be stamped either somewhere visible near the breech, (I HATE when they put them there!) or more likely to the side or under the barrel an inch or two from the muzzle.

    It will be in different sized and "font" lettering from any other markings on the barrel, maybe REALLY small so that you need a glass, and it should have the NAME of the importing company (sometimes only initials) and the PLACE of importing, such as St.Albans, VT, or Jacksonvillle, FLA, or Phoenix, AR or something.


    This "stamp" would indicate it was "officially" imported into the US and THEN sold, which wouldn't fit the story....as well.


    NOT having an importer's stamp does a lot more to raise the rifle's value than whether it's MATCHING....
  17. Xracer

    Xracer *TFF Admin Staff Mediator*

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    Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet!
    Believe it or not Polish, that's essentially the same way we cleaned the M1 Garands on the Shooting Range at Navy Boot Camp in Bainbridge, MD, after several Boot Companies "qualified" with them.

    After all....."parts is parts"....aren't they? :D
  18. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    Huh, X, then my theory of being an "illiterate peasant or a proletariate worker blessed with the benefits of a socialist education that was also illiterate" not being able to read the numbers doesn't hold, then does it? HHHhhmmm...


    Unless maybe YOU ............? :) :cool:
  19. tdl

    tdl New Member

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    Looking over the rifle again . I assumed the numbers and letters I mentioned were an import stamp. (EL1657)Understand I dont know Jack here. But anyhow I went over ther rifle again with a fine tooth comb and see nothing like intials or geographic name etc that would be an importers stamp.
  20. waynescyclegarage

    waynescyclegarage New Member

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    Hi ,new to the site. I have a really nice 1928 91/30. shiny bore etc. CAI import. The bolt and reciever match but the buttplate and the magazine lid have a line thru one number and the matching numbet reprinted. The bolt and reciever are 29370 and the scrubbed numbers are 29379. It has the hammer and cickle and a few triangles with arrows scattered around. Luv this gun except for the usless safety. I have wondered if it is safe to decock it with a cartridge chambered? It looks to me as dangerous as the firing pin doesn't "float" but appears to be all the way forward when decocked. I would prefer to carry it loaded and uncocked and simply raise and lower the bolt when ready to shoot.
    Also have a 1928 1895 Tula in like new condition. Contrary to some posts I have seen the pistol seems accurate to me. Of course my 91/30 is a tack driver.
    wayne
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