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Mother-in-Law's storage... Need help identifying some things

2K views 15 replies 6 participants last post by  Alpo 
#1 · (Edited)
My mother in law is moving and she asked me to help her identify some military items that were passed down to her late husband. Her husband's father was in WWII, but he seemed to have a minor collection of items from other eras as well. Photos are attached to provide the best description...
- Oiler/cleaning tube for an old service rifle. Looking for what rifle it belongs to and possibly the particular era.
- Bayonette in immaculate condition. Markings are "RB.D.WT.411". There is nothing else on it. On the back of the scabbard is "R.B.D. W.?(B)". Any idea what rifle this belongs to and what era it is from?
- Luger w/mfg date of 1914. There are three initials in fancy cursive writing atop the cocking mechanism - so fancy in fact that is it is difficult to make out. Possibly "DW?". Does not seem to ID the manufacturer or caliber. Would like to know anything about it. The initials could possibly be tied to the manufacturer.

Late addition to the investigation. I had noticed some markings on the right side of the pistol just before the barrel. I was not able to take a good photo of it until now. Any help identifying this would he appreciated.
Thanks for any assistance.
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#2 ·
Can't tell you much, if anything, about the oiler/cleaning kit or the bayonet (or what used to be a bayonet) the barrel lug appears to have been cut off. The "rope" and brush kind of reminds me of an old M1 Garand pull through cleaning kit, but I have never seen one inside of the metal tube.

The Luger was made by DWM which stands for Deutsch Waffen Und Munitions. We have some Luger experts that hang around in here so if you can post some good clear pictures of ALL of the markings on it, I am sure you can be told a lot more about it.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Looks like a standard German WW2 issue '98 bayonet, scabbard and frog. Should be worth upwards of $75 to $100 or better for the set. (I know somebody's gonna chime in and say it's worth 2 million dollars because I said $75 to $100) Just waiting........

The other looks to be a 'pull-thru' butt stock cleaning kit. I've never seen the metal tube with one, but I'd GUESS it is British.
 
#4 ·
I'm not a luger expert, but it appears that the safety, the trigger and the takedown are straw, which they oughta be. Serial number is 9115, and I see a 15 everywhere I SHOULD SEE a 15. Are either of the magazines numbered to the gun?
 
#5 · (Edited)
Greetings and thanks for sharing the photos as well as the questions regarding your mother-in-laws stuff. The other folks have pretty well identified everything. I might be able to add a little, but don't know if it will be of any use to you. As Mr. Brady explained, the bayonet looks like a standard '98 Mauser bayonet. That place on the cross guard (that's not the right term for it but I can't remember what it is right now) where the initials are was where the unit/regiment marks were stamped. However, the wooden handles suggest that this example was made after they stopped marking things with unit numbers. There is a book that covers unit marks from this period but I haven't been able to find it in this country yet and can't afford one from Germany. There should also be a serial number and a manufacturer's name on the blade as well as a serial number on the scabbard. Bayonet collectors will explain that some manufacturers are more rare than others, making some more valuable than others. In one of your pictures it looks as though the manufacturer's name may have been ground/buffed off and the screws on the grip being "ginched" isn't a good sign either. After World War II, lots of countries were either given or bought the surplus German mauser rifles and bayonets. Each country seems to have treated them a little differently. For example, the Russians "denazified" them by stamping over the waffenamt and/or swastika. The Isrealies stamped over some and buffed others. The color of the metal parts doesn't look quite right for an original either, suggesting it has been refinished. Finally, the frog should also have a makers stamp on the back and maybe a date. Based on all that, I'll second Mr. Brady's figures.

Mr. Gdmoody has told you about the luger. As he said, it's a 1914 DWM. The magazine with the wooden base would have been like the ones that came with it originally. The metal based mag. is from a later period, but may be even more valuable if it has a waffenamt on it. Somebody already asked about the serial number on the wood based mag. so you understand that is important. The only other question would be whether there are any marks on the front of the grip strap. In 1914 when this luger was issued, it was supposed to have a unit mark, but only a small portion of them were actually stamped. Let us know if there is anything there. If you want to see comparable lugers for pricing, visit Simpson Ltd's website. Just remember their prices are generally the highest prices around! Best of luck -- Steve
 
#6 ·
Thank you all for the information. I am able to add a few things to the "knowns".
I disassembled the pistol yesterday and ALL parts match with the last 2 digits of the S/N. Given the year, it is impeccably clean, great bore and grooves. There is no letter after the S/N under the barrel. In fact I could not find a corresponding letter anywhere on the gun. I mention this because other articles or forums I have read indicate the letter refers to what seems to be a series type. The only other different marks I have found are under the barrel, "Bo 30" and "8, 83"; and
there appears to once have been marks on the inside strap of the grip but have been ground off. I am only able to make out "P.U".
The mags do not match, the wooden one is 2264 and the metal is 6743. The holster has a stamp inside the flap which is somewhat of a challenge to read - "LEFERuNGSGENOSSENSGHAFT DER SATTLER NURNBERG 28". Quite possible I did not get every letter correct in the first part. Any chance of identifying the value with what I have shown or explained?

Strangely enough, there are no other markings on the bayonet or scabbard. No grindings either. It appears as if this was either remarkably kept as there is no nicks or marks to the blade, has original blue, and fine wood - OR - maybe there is a likely chance this is a more modern piece. I do not have the bayonet with me, but will post a photo of the lug when it is back in my possession. Wood Brown Shoe Hardwood Wood stain
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#7 · (Edited)
Hello Again:
Sorry that I wasn't able to get back sooner. Thank you for the additional photos. They help clarify things … a little. First, let me explain that I'm not an expert. The best source of information on lugers is Jan Still's Luger forum. My knowledge comes from fifty years of admiring lugers and reading everything that I can such as the stuff posted on Mr. Still's forum and in books. So, with that little disclaimer, here is what I think that I can offer. As we said before, your luger was made for the German military by DWM in 1914. You've told us that the serial numbers all match but the "numbers" are only part of the serial number. On the frame, immediately under the barrel the entire serial number is stamped and it will be a serials of number followed by a suffix "letter". That letter is part of the serial number. The contract specified that each pistol would be stamped with a number, presumably from 1 to 9999 and then the numbering would start over again with "1a" and so on through the year and then begin again the next year all over again at 1. So, each year there were "series" of lugers made - an "a" series, a "b" series or block, and so on. Some times folks, even dealers, will say that they have a really "rare early" luger, for example, serial number "12", but when you look closer it is serial number "12t", meaning that it was the 12th luger in the "t" series or block of numbers for that year. I don't know when in 1914 your luger was made, but the letter suffix will give you a better idea.

The other marks tell us things too, but everybody isn't in complete agreement on what exactly they tell us. For example, those little stamps on the right side of the receiver are inspection marks. Some folks contend that the the letters under the little crown are the initial of the last name of the inspector, with the "x" being used by a junior inspector whose last name initial was already in use by a senior inspector. The little eagle which is last in line is the military acceptance stamp, sometimes called the "Reichsadler" or "kings eagle."

The stamp "Bo 30" on the bottom of the barrel is a reference to the kind of steel used in the barrel. In this case, it is "Bohler Steel 30". Bohler Steel is still in business today.

The stamp "8.83" is the exact measurement of the inside of the barrel, meaning that it is within the specifications for 9mm.

The markings on the grip strap were unit markings, but unfortunately they have been damaged to the point we can't determine which unit used your luger. The most frequently used "P…" units were police units. Many of the police marked pistols started life as military pistols but at the end of the war were turned in by the military and "reissued" to the police. When this happened the pistols typically would be stamped with the police unit designation. Your example does not show any of the other indications that it is/was a police reissue. For example, your luger does not have the "police safety" or the 1920 stamp on the receiver typical of so many reissued police lugers. There were regular army units that began with "P…" such as "Pioneer," "Proviant" (meaning provisions), "Park" (meaning depot), "Pferd" (meaning horse). If the next letter was a "U" as you indicate, that narrows it a little more because there were fewer "U"s. The "U" could mean Ulanen (a type of kavallerie), unterofficier school (nco school) or some other unit unknown to me. At this point, I can't think of any units that would begin "P.U…." at least according to the official way of designating units. However, these stamps were generally applied by the units themselves and the folks who actually did the stamping did not allows follow the "official" rules. The folks over on Jan Still's forum could offer more.

Lieferungsgenossessenscahft der Sattler (LGS) began in Nürnberg in March 1915 as a union of three small leather goods companies. So your holster was probably made a little after your pistol. They made cartridge boxes and bayonet frogs as well. The company went out of business in 1969. If you do an internet search for "Lieferungs genossenschaft der Sattler Nürnberg" you'll find all sorts of stuff. I do not know what the "28" means, but it could indicate any number of things--pistol number, replacement number, etc. There may be some more numbers and/or letters stamped in ink under the flap of the holster. There should also be a little pouch for the loading tool under the flap as well. A genuine, WWI loading tool can be found on fleabay for $50-$100. Holsters such as yours range from a low of about $100 to as high as $250, depending on condition, markings, and whether the loading tool is present and original. (Some folks are asking as much as much as $35.00 for reproduction loading tools.)

The alum. based magazine has the serial number with the letter suffix, but it also has the little "+" sign. That usually means that it was the second magazine for the pistol with that serial number. The fact that this example has the alum. base but no waffenamt suggests that it might have been made for a Weimar era luger (1920-1933). The alum. base with the blued body was typically issued until about 1939, but after 1933 they had the waffenamt. You will find magazines like this one for sale anywhere from $100 to $150. The price would be slightly higher for one with the waffenamt.

Finally, the question of whether or not it has been refinished. Lots of lugers just like this were imported into the US in the period from about 1950 to about 1965. They sold for as little as $35.00 and for three or four dollars more you get one one that had been "arsenal refinished." A holster like yours would be purchased for another $4.00 or $5.00. Look at where the file or grind marks on the grip strap. If you see shinny metal, it may be only one finish (the original finish). If there is not shinny metal and you can see blued finish over the grind/file marks, it has been refinished. Sometimes you can actually see the two different colors of finish if the unit mark was filed after it had been refinished. Where does all of this leave us with "value"?

Lots of guys who bought these pistols in the period 1955-68, bought them because they wanted a souvenir of their service in WWII. When the pistol arrived and it wasn't a "Nazi" luger like they had seen in Europe and wanted, many of them were a little disappointed. They didn't know what that stamp on the front strap was, but they knew it wasn't typically on the "Nazi" lugers, so they filed or ground them off. Some of the importers had them filed off after they discovered that many of the ex-G.I.s who bought them, didn't like them. Even today, every once in a while I will find somebody who thinks those are "import marks" and therefore not desirable. If you look over the lugers currently available for sale, you'll find examples with the unit marks ground off. What impact does that have on the price? Well, there is no hard and fast rule, but it would have been more valuable if it were still there. Lots of people don't even know what they are so it devalues the gun only slightly; others just think that it's another sort of "blemish" that devalues the gun more significantly; others collect only unit marked guns and therefore wouldn't be interested in this one at all because it's been filed. If I saw this luger, with the holster, listed on one of the internet auction sites, I would not be surprised to see it listed to start at $1000.00 with an undisclosed reserve. It could get no bids or it could sell for as much as $1500.00 or more if two guys decide they don't want the other one to get it.

I hope this helps.
 
#8 ·
sck,
Your feedback is very much appreciated. I read over it several times to ensure I was absorbing as much as possible. I will check out the website you recommend.
Through all of the info, I was able to determine the gun had not been reblued. The grinding goes straight to the metal - and other spots show wear points that may reference an original bluing.
I am baffled at the serial number description you gave. I will do some research at the suggested website, but want to provide you the photo and an opportunity to elaborate some more since you have been generous in sharing your knowledge. This gun has no letter in the serial number. Does this mean anything unusual? The photo below displays the location that you identified as where the full serial number would be.
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#9 · (Edited)
Hello Again:
Ah ha! Thank you for the new photo. Your luger does not have the letter suffix. This is not "unusual," rare, or strange. What that means is that your luger was in the first "series" or "block" of pistols made that year. When they began producing lugers for the year in which yours was made (1914), and there is considerable dispute when each year "officially" began, yours was the 9115 th pistol produced. Then came 9116, 9117, on so on until they reached 9999. The next luger manufactured after 9999 with a date of 1914 was not 10,000 but rather received the number 1a, and then came 2a, all the way to 9999a, which was followed by 1b, etc. Then in 1915, that entire numbering system began again with number 1. In your case, it means that your luger was, in all probability (have to put that qualifier in there) manufactured, distributed and in the hands of someone wearing his majesty's waffenrock (army uniform) on August 1, 1914, when the Great War officially began.

Now, there are no surviving central records that would allow us to follow the life of your pistol. If we had that unit number, it would give us a better understanding of its location throughout the war, at least the early days of the war. Without that information, we can only speculate. Did it go to the western front where it would be part of the "rush to the sea"? Or did it go to the the east where it would be part of events like the great Battle of Tannenberg? Maybe it went south to the Italian front. Museum folks have a fancy word for it "provenance"--"a record of ownership of a work of art or an antique…." that helps to make the object come alive and become a little more interesting and informative. In the case of your luger, we know it was in the fight, we just don't know exactly where. There are, of course, lots of books on the First World War, but one that might be of interest to you and help bring your luger to life is one that offers a view of war from the level of the soldiers serving in a somewhat typical regiment, see John K. Rieth, Imperial Germany's "Iron Regiment" in the First World War. It is an account of the life of Infanterie Regiment 169. IR 169 started the war as part of the 29th Division, where it was part of the "race to the sea." In 1915 it was removed from that division and, along with other units, formed the basis of the 52nd Division which faced the British at Arras and participated in the Battle of the Somme. The pistol below was issued to Infanterie Regiment Nr. 169, Kompany 7, weapon # 13.

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If I haven't been clear enough or you have more questions, don't hesitate to ask.
Hope this helps -- Steve
 
#10 ·
I truly wish I had more identifying marks on the pistol to trace it further back.
You, sir, have been a great source of information - and your presentation of the information has been genuine and respectful. Not something seen regularly these days.
I will pass on your information to my Mother-in-Law. I'm sure she will appreciate your efforts.
I thank you.
 
#16 ·
I figgered he did not see the word AND in your post, and read your statement as "the 1903 Garand", so he corrected you. :confused:
 
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