Mounting a scope on a Winchester 94?

Discussion in 'Technical Questions & Information' started by fuzebox40, Mar 8, 2012.

  1. fuzebox40

    fuzebox40 Active Member

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    I would much prefer not to have a scope on a 94 but unfortunately if I am to be able to hit my target with any accuracy whatsoever I will need one. My eyes aint so good anymore and even with glasses on the rear sight is still blurry. My dilemma is that I don’t want to do anything that might cause marks, scratches or blemishes to the finish since these do not have an actual mount attachment. The gun dates to 1968 and has made it this far with only little signs of use and I don’t want to be the one to screw that up. Is anyone here familiar with the mounts they make for the 94 top eject and can they be installed and removed again later with no ill effects to the finish.

    I haven’t seen these first hand but I see they have side mounts which would appear to utilize existing screw holes in the receiver, however I’m guessing that It’s metal attaching directly to the painted receiver (or whatever that finish is). Even though there shouldn’t be any movement to speak of, IMO there would still need to be a membrane between the two if expected not to leave a trace if and when removed. Anybody have experience with this issue?

    I also saw a pic of one mounted on top, forward of the receiver, using the rear sight dovetail and I think the forearm band. This would of course require a particularly long eye relief. As always thanks for any discussion on this.
  2. Helix_FR

    Helix_FR New Member

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    Weaver makes a side mount for them that does utilize the currend screw holes and I do understand your concern.The best and thinnest suggestion I can use is make a shim or barrer out of tyvek. Tyvek is tear resistant but its easy to cut into shape and it has enough thickness to provide that wear protection. You can use a hole punch to punch the screw holes in it.
  3. fuzebox40

    fuzebox40 Active Member

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    Never heard of that. Specialty product or in stose? I"m ure I can google it tomorow.
  4. The_Rifleman

    The_Rifleman New Member

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    Any type of attachment will mar the bluing, it is unavoidable. Be as careful as possible, maybe inter-tube rubber between the two surfaces will help.

    I can't find any guide gun mounts like you suggest.
  5. goofy

    goofy Well-Known Member

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    TYVEK is a product that is used in construction it is used in between the siding and the base plywood.If there is any new construction or residing going on around you I am sure there is scrap pieces allover the job site just ask and they will give you a piece.It is like a heavy paper with fabric woven in it.
    Mike
  6. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

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    fuzebox40:

    There are several problems with mounting a scope on the Winchester Model 94. No scope can be above the top of the receiver as most 94's are top eject (the very newer models are side eject and do not have this problem). The empty case will hit the scope and fall back into the chamber area.

    The next choice is a "scout" type long eye relief scope mounted forward of the ejection port in the dovetail of the rear sight on the barrel.

    Still another choice is the side mount. But it will mar the finish eventually. Anything that is used as a gasket will either reduce the rigidness of the mounting system (effect accuracy) or the chemicals in the "gasket" might attack the finish over time. Side mounts are hard to get use to. The gun is not positioned correctly for passing the recoil to the shooter or the head has to be wildly cocked to line up with the scope. Pads on the side of the stock help with that.

    Why not try the open sights again but this time remember the rear sight does not have to be sharply in focus. It is the front sight that should be in focus. Both the rear sight and the target can be fuzzy. To aid in this you can use one of two devices that work pretty well.

    The first is reading glasses from the drug store that pull the distance focus of you eyes to the front sight. Test them in the store viewing an object that is the same distance as the font sight to your eye. Buy the power of glasses that get that distance the sharpest or pick a compromise that makes the front sight and distant objects across the store both acceptably sharp. There are shooting aids that clip to the shooting glasses that do the same thing but they are for Olympic shooting and tend to be very expensive

    Another is the devices that have a small hole in them that you mount in front of the eye on your shooting glasses. It works to increase the depth of focus but it does dim the view. In brightly lit indoor ranges or outdoors the dimming is no problem. This approach makes all three, the rear and front sight and the target, dim but appear to be in focus.

    As you probably know you model 94 is post 1964. It has significantly less value than a pre-1964. Marring the finish, while not ideal, probably will not effect its resale value if the scope would go with the sale of the gun (not removed for the sale). My position on things like this is that I own the gun, shoot the gun, and may modify the gun to fit my needs. I never intend on selling it so who cares if the finish is marred under the scope mount.

    LDBennett
  7. fuzebox40

    fuzebox40 Active Member

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    I’m aware of the post 64 thing but on this particular piece I can’t bring myself to inflict damage. I realize it may only be my mental status but the thought still causes intense pain, profuse sweating, difficulty in breathing, loss of consciousness, violent convulsions and fear of death, some of which I try to avoid.
    I agree a side mount gasket would have to be thin and not compressible like rubber in order to disallow micro movement. LDBennett, still my fears are the same as you and The Rifleman mention even with the use of a gasket for long term, though it sounds like an easy way to go. I definitely know my way around a job site, in fact a phone call is all I need to see if they’re using TYVEK around here.
    Now a dovetail attachment on the other hand wouldn’t or at least shouldn’t create any said issues with the rear of a mount but I have to wonder how the rest attaches. I haven’t yet found this type for sale but I’ll post a pic I found on the net of one mounted this way just for the sake of anyone who hasn’t seen them. Does anyone know who sells this? I need to look into this type of scope also. I assume it’s referred to as just a “scout scope”?

    Rifleman: this is about the best picture I’ve found of this mount.

    Attached Files:

  8. Alpo

    Alpo Well-Known Member

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    If your problem is your rear sight is fuzzy, have you considered a peep?

    The holes for mounting it are already drilled and tapped on modern 94s.
    [​IMG]

    That top one, with the peep, is from 1970. With a peep you don't have to look at the rear sight. You look through it, at the front and the target.

    Now, if you're like me, and can't see horns at a hundred yards, so need a scope on your hunting rifle for the magnification, that's one thing. But if it's just "got old and can't focus on three things at once anymore", the peep should fix you right up.
  9. fuzebox40

    fuzebox40 Active Member

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    Yep, that's me, and that's worth checking out. I'll have locate one I can "peep" through to see if it will work for me.
  10. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

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  11. The_Rifleman

    The_Rifleman New Member

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    It looks to still have the potential mar the bluing. My stock rear site mars the finish. That scope mount looks to be touching the barrel along the top edge, and it looks as if the barrel band is part of the scope mount, so there is probably some wood marring issues to boot.

    Bluing touch-up isn't very difficult. I just got done bluing my 22's barrel and it looks better than it did new.
    There was portions of the barrel I left the old bluing on to compare, I can't tell where the new bluing started and the old bluing left-off.

    I see you only having two solutions. Either get a new rifle you don't care to mount a scope on; or bite the bullet and mount the scope on that rifle, in whichever way.

    To me, my rifle is a tool; just like any other. If a tool isn't useful for some reason or another, say because it doesn't have snow tires; I'll get snow tires, or another tool equipped for the task.
  12. Hawg

    Hawg Active Member

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    Have you thought about a full buckhorn?

    [​IMG]
  13. fuzebox40

    fuzebox40 Active Member

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    There's rarely a perfect solution is there? Once again it's a matter of choosing the lessor of two evils.
    I'm afraid the buckhorn wouldn't help me as you still must align your sights. I can't align them because I can't make out an edge that close to my face. I'm looking into to these peep sights though, sounds feasible sinse I wouldn't have to look at it or deal with placement within it. Midway has a 5D for $35 that has good reviews. The Lymam model 66 looks like the sweet spot and includes two apertures but the price doubles too.
    I've got to go down to the gun shop and physically look through one before throwing money at it. If it'll work for me this is the way I'll go. Cheaper overall and by far a smaller footprint.
  14. The_Rifleman

    The_Rifleman New Member

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    I bought the Williams 5D over a year ago; it is sitting in my sight box as we speak. If you never want to adjust the sight after the initial adjustment, that sight is the expensive path.

    If you want an adjustable sight in 1/4moa click increments, the Williams FP is the one you want. I have one on my Win 94 now, and I plan on never removing it.

    But sight picture is a very important part of a peep sight. I needed to learn how best use them when I changed over to using peeps in all my iron sighted rifles... I had to switch eyes too, as to use my dominant eye. (No one told me about that when I started shooting as a kid.)

    I am still getting used to the Williams peep sight, my older Lyman peep has different designed apertures that make the peep clearer for better alignment of sight picture. The newer Lyman peeps aren't as good quality as my older steel one; it doesn't have very good reviews, they seem to bend.
  15. Hawg

    Hawg Active Member

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    I use it as a ghost ring. Works pretty good.
  16. Alpo

    Alpo Well-Known Member

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    I've got the Williams 5D on half a dozen of my guns. It's a fine sight. It's just not "click adjustable".

    Everyone, nowadays, is so used to scope and "it's two inches left, quarter inch clicks, so eight clicks right and it will be on". That's not how this works. You shoot. It's off? Move the sight a little in the direction it needs to go. Not enough? Move it some more. Too much? Move it back some. Takes a little longer, but once you got it, why mess with it again?

    It's got witness marks on it, so if you absolutely have to adjust the sight, you can. It's just not as precise as "quarter-inch clicks".

    I put a scope on my 308. Sighted it for 2 1/2 inches high at 100 yards. It's good to about 400. I've never re-sighted it. That scope's been on that rifle 25 years or more. I check it. I've just never found the need to readjust it.

    Same with the adjustable sights on my pistols. Once I get 'em dialed in, I don't mess with 'em again.

    If you were doing precision target shooting at several different "known" ranges, then yes, I can see how the ability to click adjust your sights up and down is helpful. But for most people, I don't see the need.
  17. The_Rifleman

    The_Rifleman New Member

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    That is the point, you can't mess with it again or you have to do that all over again. Why pay $35 for the functionality of a $5 sight?
    Marble's #30 Universal Sight Blade Only Peep-Style .150" Hole Steel Blue

    It isn't "precise" whatsoever!

    Good for what?
    I did the math for a 150gr SST. at 200 you would be right on, at 300 you would be 8 inches low, (that rules out deer hunting,) and at 400 yards you would be 26 inches low, (rules out moose hunting.)

    The 308 was apples and oranges, now you're going with handguns? How does this address the topic?

    Why is "known" in "quotes?" How does click adjustments not work if you figure out the distance on the fly?

    Why does it seem to me that you are giving out bad advise, simply because you don't like me and my shooting style?
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2012
  18. da357mag

    da357mag New Member

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    One real easy way to fix the problem, get a rifle that takes a scope in the first place!:eek: Problem solved! lol!:D Doug
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