My buddy was shot Friday night

Discussion in 'The Constitutional & RKBA Forum' started by Crawdaddy, Mar 5, 2012.

  1. MSGT-R

    MSGT-R Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,236
    Location:
    Colorado
    Doesn't matter weather it's loaded or not; absolutely NOT a thing to do, I agree!

    That being said, I lost a friend in elementary school to just such an incident. Laura Powers. She had a whacko sister that was pulling the trigger; thought it would be funny to scare the little sister. She had a known "mean streak" a mile long. I always avoided her dumb ass.

    You can't legislate "STUPID".. and common sense is not common anymore. We are a society of people brought up to fear that which is not understood, and obliviots are not reined in and educated. That frame of mind did not exist a short 50 years ago.
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2012
  2. al45lc

    al45lc New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,124
    Location:
    colorful colorado
    I've taken two safety courses, one was a joke.
    Now, consider this. Who taught the first firearms safety course? And who taught that instructor? Who taught Wilbur and Orville how to fly? Who taught Mr. Diesel how to drive?
    Not EVERYONE is so stupid and so foolish as to NEED a firearms safety course.
    Fact is, MOST of firearms safety is simple and good ol' fashioned common sense. Yes, there are those who don't exhibit that quality, but I don't like being lumped into that group by anyone, and that's what a safety course is out of neccessity, dumbing down to the lowest common denominator.
    So what about the person who can't afford one, like a single mother working two jobs because her no-good hubby flew the coop? Time and distance could also be a factor making it next to impossible to take one.
    These are situations that those that oppose our right to carry or even buy work to make happen. They figure the harder the better, the hell with the woman who is in danger from a crazed ex-hubby or boyfriend.
    This is the biggest reason I'm against it, first a safety course, then what?
    In the history of Govt.s, when have those that run them ever been satisfied with a little control?
  3. American Leader

    American Leader Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    1,715
    Location:
    Iowa
    No to the original question! And as far as government intervention in our lives, no again please. I want as little of all government at all levels as possible!
  4. norahc

    norahc Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2011
    Messages:
    2,650
    Location:
    An hour's drive from the nearest McDonald's
    Except that accidents imply that it there was no way to prevent it. While this incident was unintended, it was not accidental. I agree with the rest of the post.
  5. The_Rifleman

    The_Rifleman New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    873
    Location:
    Ohio
    That isn't what happened, if the topic was "reject[ed]," the soapbox you're standing on would not be here.

    Why must you be insulting?
  6. Ed~

    Ed~ New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    171
    Location:
    AridZona
    No Insult implied or meant. If my words came across that way, I do apologize for my poor phrasing.

    Maybe I also misunderstood the intention of replies to this post such as "UM H**L NO" or "UHHHH,NOT NO, BUT HECK NO. NO FLIPPIN WAY" as coming down on the OP for his question. It was a tragedy among friends that he experienced and shared with us. That traumatic experience sparked a concern over lack of firearms safety education that I felt was courageously expressed. In fact, I felt he showed tremendous trust in the community to discuss this concern openly.

    But if I am all for education of firearms safety and encourage any gun rights organization's efforts to push that "agenda" that leads to greater firearms awareness -I am also wondering, like the OP and others, if there are ways to do this without undue restrictive influence on our right to bear arms.

    I simply do not encourage the "protecting Rights at all cost" attitude because that contrary to some beliefs the 2nd Amendment is not always under attack and the Laws of Nature ensure there simply is No Freedom without Responsibility.

    Ride any motorcycle fast and you know what I mean by Natural Law as opposed to theoretical rights. Go too fast to make that curve and your body will suffer the consequences regardless of whether you believe in your right to speed. In the motorcycle community, a similarly hot topic is actually Mandatory Helmet Laws. Talk about taking away one's rights! AZ is one of the few (three?) holdout states that do not have a helmet law on the books. And yet, I rarely ride without a helmet myself and appreciate my rider friends' ability to decide for themselves. It really is a different sensation to ride "free" of a helmet.

    Yet if you've not seen human brain spilled on asphalt and you've never seen all emergency staff, resources, and ER room procedures consumed in a motorcycle accident, billed even if you can't save the rider, you don't really have all the information necessary to make an informed decision on a issue with very social consequences. Healthcare if never free... we all pay for that bill one way or another.

    You see what I am trying to say? I'm trying to keep things practical when discussing a hot-button topic about personal rights vs society's laws. I don't pretend to know what THE RIGHT answers are, but I will not refrain from injecting a strong fact to a good discussion if I feel it would help lead one to reason. I wouldn't imagine anyone here on our forum would want otherwise. Because the alternative is the mindlessly follow like cows and repeatedly suffer the same mistakes/pain over and over again. I am always for finding a better way if it exists, and creating one if it doesn't: the best of the American Spirit.

    But truly, Rifleman, I would never think to personally come out just to insult anyone's views; especially not yours if that long-shot in your Avatar was your own... :D

    So, if it is necessary, I am sorry for any of my mis-statements. I am always willing to take responsibility for my words and open to explaining myself if asked to.
  7. The_Rifleman

    The_Rifleman New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    873
    Location:
    Ohio
    That is a mod, if the mod was "reject[ing] certain topics outright," this discussion would be over!



    Take it upon yourself to educate people! Provide information, discuss actual firearms safety!



    Indeed, the "Responsibility" is the shooters, I feel he should lose his "Freedom" for gross negligence or worse!


    Ridiculous!

    Now it is getting surreal!

    I'm assuming since you can't address the actual "topic" you're hoping the preponderance of words will make for a compelling argument.



    The person that shot his friend should pay monetarily and punitively for his stupidity; he shunned his "Responsibility;" I didn't.
  8. Ed~

    Ed~ New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    171
    Location:
    AridZona
    I concede on all points to The_Rifleman.
  9. gun runner

    gun runner Former Guest

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,869
    Location:
    South Texas
    I cant agree with you more Juker.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2012
  10. gun runner

    gun runner Former Guest

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,869
    Location:
    South Texas
    A firearm safety class before buying your first gun? Thats pathetic to even think like that.
  11. MSGT-R

    MSGT-R Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,236
    Location:
    Colorado
    I never did, being a retired Marine, but if someone hasn't ever had exposure to guns, it's a good thing to have around. Besides, I had a lot of fun taking the CCW class! :)
  12. BlackEagle

    BlackEagle Well-Known Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,365
    Location:
    UK
    +1 :thumbsup:
  13. Ed~

    Ed~ New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    171
    Location:
    AridZona
    For those of us who grew up plinkin' or went into the military or became LEO, it is sometimes hard to imagine how ignorant most people are of the basic safety rules regarding firearms.

    Case in point, I once invited friends, husband/wife, to go shooting at the local desert range. They were complete city folks, enjoying the cowboy image after having visited Tombstone with all the mock gunfights the day before.

    A friend of mine with a size-able collection came along to add to their fun. After he safety-checked a stainless "Dirty Harry" S&W he handed it to the wife and started explaining about guns. I could tell she was only half listening while enjoying the heft of the revolver. Suddenly she grimaced and turned around to her husband and pointed the gun at him all playful-like saying, "Stick'em up! Pow, pow!"

    Her 6'2" husband's eyes popped fixed on the huge barrel and he instinctively backed up with hands raised. Everyone else at the range froze in astonishment. She finally asked innocently, "What?" to which my friend slowly reached for the gun and cooly said, "We don't want to do that..." and continued teaching.

    She actually cried later when she realized how she really scared her husband and all of us by fooling around with a real gun.

    That is the level of ignorance people have with guns. It is not their fault if their only exposure they have with guns come from movies before they handle a real weapon. Guns simply aren't a part of their world.

    Now do you want that kind of ignorance buying guns simply because they can afford to? That's what leads to meaningless accidents and ruins lives.

    As the old saying goes, Common Sense ain't always so common. -It's got to be taught.

    And like MSGT-R said, the learning can be made fun.
  14. al45lc

    al45lc New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,124
    Location:
    colorful colorado
    Teaching 'common sense'?
    Think about that, if 'common sense' must be 'taught', it AIN'T common, now is it?
    Sorry, but I believe it's this kind of thinking that leads to the good 'ol Govt. getting involved, and even the slowest among us knows where that will lead.
    I know this sounds cruel, but there IS some truth to the theory of Darwinism.
    I am NOT responsible for the stupidity of others, nor is society at large.
    At one time in this land there was a doctrine known as The prudent man principle (now slightly bastardized by the legal definition for managing funds) that recognized that a man was responsible to and for himself, giving credit to a prudent persons intelligence.
    I find the kinds of laws and rules that dictate my conformity to others lack of intelligence insulting to mine.
    And I'm perfectly willing to be held liable for any actions I may take or cause, that's the price a prudent person recognizes for their liberty.
  15. Ed~

    Ed~ New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    171
    Location:
    AridZona
    Prudent man principle. Yes, I don't disagree with what you described.

    Still, I suspect there should be a balance between socially agreed contracts for bigger issues versus just the innate self-preservation ability that we assume most people are born with (and that is a big assumption given the wild popularity of the "Jackass" franchise). "Giving credit to prudent person's intelligence," implies that intelligence levels are generally the same in society.

    But we are not funding education the same as Defense Dept., Wall St. Banks, etc... How does that affect prudence/intelligence in society? -I suspect it does.

    I agree completely with the idea that you can't simply legislate away stupid. But you can allocate more for education in general. That usually takes legislation though it can also mean budgeting more for current existing programs.

    Either way, do things get better by simply ignoring it? Yes, I guess when the Darwin factor finally hits zero. But I gather that's a whole lot of unnecessary suffering in between for good folks who otherwise could have learned better.
  16. The_Rifleman

    The_Rifleman New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    873
    Location:
    Ohio
    If you agree there is no "but" or "still..."


    Straw Man. It isn't being "ignored." This is another side of your "reject certain topics outright" ploy. You have no interest in gun safety, you are here to convince us to further erode our rights with your bait and switch tactics. So I better qualify my first sentence of this paragraph, "It[gun safety] isn't being ignored, by us; it is you that 'ignores' it in lieu of legislation..." otherwise you would be promoting it instead of legislation.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2012
  17. The_Rifleman

    The_Rifleman New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    873
    Location:
    Ohio
    Your "teacher" friend was mostly at fault. He gives a gun to a person he knows to know absolutely nothing about guns, at a public range, without one bit of instruction.

    I've taught many people firearm handling and safety, it never began with handing them a firearm.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2012
  18. MSGT-R

    MSGT-R Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,236
    Location:
    Colorado

    Thanks, that example is absolutely sterling!
    A momentary dis-connect of the common sense could have been devistating had that gun been loaded. This is what happens with children who get access to unattended guns (and they have never been taught about them). Fantasy kicks in before reality takes hold.

    I was at at gun show this weekend; the Shootist was absolutely packed with people. Most that were handling guns had muzzle awareness, a few did not. I reached over to the man beside me and redirected the muzzle away from the chest of the employee behind the counter. I gently and politely told him that what he was doing was not a good habit to get into. Then the implication hit him...
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2012
  19. al45lc

    al45lc New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,124
    Location:
    colorful colorado
    I'd like to get this straight, I'm not against gun safety programs, I'm against legislation requiring them for purchase.
    It's bad enough we must jump through these hoops for a CCW, but for a purchase would be as Un-Constitutional as a test for our right to speak out on politics.
    What is most interesting is that even when one has completed a course and is issued a permit to carry, the BEARER alone is STILL responsible for whatever may happen in the course of carrying that arm.
    This is as it should be.
    My reasons are simple, it is a RIGHT to keep and bear, and ANY roadblock or even detour of that right is absolutely intolerable and unacceptable.
    Shall we have a test for our freedom of speech and expression?
    They are NOT seperable, as was explained in the Federalist papers, and commented upon by our Founding Fathers.
    The O.P. stated that he didn't think that requiring a course to purchase would infringe upon our rights, when in fact that's just what such legislation would be.
    It would be nice to travel the road of 'let's make sure everyone is safe' with all taking a safety course, but when Govt. legislation gets involved it becomes the well paved road to hell.
  20. BlackEagle

    BlackEagle Well-Known Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,365
    Location:
    UK
    A lot more damage has been done with words, written and spoken, than with guns. "The pen is mightier than the sword."
    Tyrants exercise power over self-expression, usually after disarming the populace.
Similar Threads
Forum Title Date
The Constitutional & RKBA Forum Per My Buddy Ted ....... Apr 7, 2012
The Constitutional & RKBA Forum Florida Gov. Rick Scott signs bill to allow firing of warning shots Jun 21, 2014
The Constitutional & RKBA Forum Colorado SHOTGUN ban? Mar 2, 2013
The Constitutional & RKBA Forum The Shotgun Jan 7, 2013
The Constitutional & RKBA Forum One Shot .... With A .22 No Less ! Sep 3, 2012

Share This Page