My new Stag Arms 5.56. (first time shooting it) ..problems

Discussion in 'Large-Bore/Small-Bore Rifle/Shotgun' started by Gibill, Aug 30, 2012.

  1. JLA

    JLA Moderator

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    pressure and leade
  2. JLA

    JLA Moderator

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    Im still curious as to the powder and bullet used? I ask because i experienced this very same issue way beck when I first took ip ARs and feeding them handloads.. Had nothing really to do with the bullet and everything to do with the powder.
  3. Gibill

    Gibill New Member

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    To answer your question, JLA, I don't know the powder load.......the dealer I bought the gun from told me to use 5.56 green tip 62gr bullets......he told me where to buy them......they were in a plain clear plastic bag.......think I learned my lesson on buying ammo at a show.....yesterday, I contacted stag and they told me to send them the gun for their techs to go through to find the problem........it's boxed up ready to go out mon. A.m.......will keep u posted what I find out........i like JLA's observation about the possibility of the slots on the gas rings not being offset. Could that cause the spent shells coming out of the gun Luke warm? (as well as the barrel)
  4. woolleyworm

    woolleyworm Moderator

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    [/QUOTE]..i like JLA's observation about the possibility of the slots on the gas rings not being offset. Could that cause the spent shells coming out of the gun Luke warm? (as well as the barrel)[/QUOTE]

    I dont think so. Most likely it is a gas port/alignment problem; the hot gasses are not coming back into the action. ( either not at all or not enough) It could be a problem with the ammo, but you'd have to check it in another gun to be sure.
  5. JLA

    JLA Moderator

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    It certainly can. All the gas pressure would bypass thru the lined up splits.

    So i take it you purchased remanufactured ammo? If so heres my assessment. Ammo remanufacturers do not use the best powder for a particular cartridge. they use the most efficient. Which 99% of the time is also the fastest burning suitable to the cartridge being loaded. The problem you are having is a short pressure curve. pressur eis spiking and dropping back off before the gas system can get the bolt open to eject the empty and allow the spring to load a fresh round, instead its shortstroking and just closing back up on the spent case. What you need is a slower burning propellant.

    Heres my expereince with this very issue.

    Back in the winter of '08, both my FIL and myself began purchasing ARs. At the time I was reloading for them with 53 gr SMKs and Reloder 7. They worked fine thru the winter and on into the spring time. Probelms arose witht he 100+ degree days of the summer for us. the gas systems on ALL 3 of our ARs began shortstroking regularly. So i began diagnosing and changing parts. The bushmaster my FIL purchased was the only used rifle of the 3 so i upgraded his gas tube and the piston rings on the bolt head to a onepiece spiral ring. My 2 both got the one piece spiral ring. Next morning we hit the range and things were fine until lunchtime when everything started shortstroking again. Its 105 outside and im just about ready to melt $4K dollars worth of ARs with an acetylene torch. Oh well, we were out of ammo anyway. So i head home, took a cold shower and sat and began to sort and process spent .223 brass. I actualy stumbled upon the fix accidentally. I was nearly out of reloder 7 so i dug out my manuals to find a suitable powder that I did have and found that IMR4895 suited the 53 gr SMKs as well. but the median charge was in the 25 gr range where the median charge for reloder 7 was in the 22 gr range. So I did a little digging, which turned up nothing relevant to my issue. Anyhow, couple days past before we hit the range again and I all but forgot about it. It was a balmy 107 degree friday afternoon when we hit the range with the 4895 reloads. All 3 rifles ran perfect. So I called another reloading friend of mine (hes a green over on Reloaders nest forum) and we dicussed the issue right down to changing to 4895. He said that could very well be it. Seems the pressure curve of the reloder 7 reloads were right on the cusp of being enough for the AR to function properly. And the 4895 gave a higher port pressure for the gas system to work with which eliminated outr issues.

    Anyway, point im rather windedly making is this. Ammo reman's didnt even use reloder 7. i bet cha money they used something closer to IMR 4198 or something similar in burn speed, which is a very economical propellant to use in .223 reloads as you get more rounds per pound. Of course it comes at the expense of some autoloading rifle designs.

    My advice is for you to try a couple of different ammo brands with heavier bullets 62 gr and above, as heavier bullets generally get loaded with slower powders. Im bettn your reliability issue goes away.
  6. LDBennett

    LDBennett Active Member

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    Gibill:

    I still think it is ammo related. Commercial reloads are a crap game. Did they short the powder to get more reloads out of a can of powder?

    As I said before....Buy some good commercial ammo from Remington, or Winchester. Try it in the gun and I'd bet the gun is fine. You are wasting your time and money sending it back without first doing the commercial ammo test. The gun will probably come back "No problem found". But hey, we all get to choose.

    LDBennett
  7. GunHugger

    GunHugger Well-Known Member

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    I and others have told him this but he doesn't seem to read it...or want to believe it.
  8. LDBennett

    LDBennett Active Member

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    "You can lead a horse to water but you can not make him drink it."


    LDBennett
  9. 3/2 STA SS

    3/2 STA SS Active Member

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    So true on so many levels...
  10. LDBennett

    LDBennett Active Member

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    3/2 STA SS:

    My son-in-law had the same exact problem with his Stag Arms AR. He had only brought along some ammo that was bad. It got stored in a closed metal cabinet with an open container of pool chorine. The out side of the ammo showed signs of corrosion but it went bang (but apparently not hard enough!). When I shot my reloads that worked fine in my American Spirit Varmint AR in his gun it too worked fine. When a gun is gas or recoil operated the ammo load level, the gas pressure curve, and bullet mass all effect the operation.

    But what do I know??? I only reload for 30 different cartridges, several semi-auto rifles in bigger calibers (8mm Mauser, 308, 7mm Mag), and many semi-auto handguns.

    LDBennett
  11. Gibill

    Gibill New Member

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    Boy, talk about trigger happy people! You guys are shooting w/out giving anybody a chance......read my responses.....I appreciate all of the advice and AM taking it seriously. Just got back from cabellla's and purchased several other commercial rounds.....American eagle 223 55Gr fmj......Winchester 5.56 55 Gr full metal jacket.......PCM 5.56 NATO 62grs green tip-LAP......gonna test it hopefully tomorrow or tues. thanks again to all responses......taking all info as a learning experience. For those of you who haven't shot at me yet.....thanks.....for those of you that did.......well, I have big shoulders (meaning no offense taken) 2nd meaning.....you missed me! LOL thanks for your help and will let u know how it goes!
  12. JLA

    JLA Moderator

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    Skins good n thick. Youll do nicely Bill. ;)
  13. GunHugger

    GunHugger Well-Known Member

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    Well Bill you did post the following AFTER you said "I appreciate all of the advice and AM taking it seriously."

    This was your last post...right before we wondered why you weren't willing to try what many suggested.

    Last edited: Sep 2, 2012
  14. Gibill

    Gibill New Member

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    My weapon is on the floor and my hands are up! Please don't shoot. On second thought picked my weapon back up......it isn't working anyway......you got me....saw the timeline differently.....and been pm'ing others about using commercial rounds......my bad!
  15. Gibill

    Gibill New Member

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    Well, fellas took my stag out loaded with PCM xtac 5.56 62 gr green tip.....fired 1 round.......didn't cycle. My buddy noticed a flash.....but not at the end of the barrel......the flash came at the end of the gas tube at the hand guard.....gun will be packed back up and sent to stag.......
  16. woolleyworm

    woolleyworm Moderator

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    Hope they get it back to you asap. Good idea to have someone watching too.
  17. Gibill

    Gibill New Member

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    well, continued looking into the problem.......those of you who suggested a gas problem.....you were right.....JLA worked with me and walked me thru the problem......taking all of the suggestions into consideration.......after shooting commercial ammo thru it and hearing my description of what happened, JLA walked me thru pulling the gas block and checking the alignment.......what appears to have happened, the dealer changed out the hand guard with a quad rail. in doing so the gas block was not over the barrel port. stag's delay in getting the shipping label and rma # gave me the time to converse back and forth with JLA and got the rail installed properly wih the gas block centered over the gas port........gun fired and cycled with commercial ammo as well as hand mfg'd loads........thanks again for the forum and everybody who gave input.....special thanks to JLA!
  18. LDBennett

    LDBennett Active Member

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    Gibill:

    It is time to take that dealer to task for what he did to your gun and the delay in your enjoyment of same. The only way he'll know he screwed up is for you to show him that you are a little bit upset.

    There are only so many things it could be but without the gun in hand to disassemble, as you did, there is not a surefire way to tell exactly what is wrong. The call to use commercial ammo was the least intrusive suggestion. If any of us had the gun in hand we may have started with the gas system after trying commercial ammo.

    Don't feel cheated as all of us have had some unknowing or uncaring person mess up a gun or two. I had a Garand re-barreled years ago and I could not get it to cycle after the re-barrel. After much investigation and kind of by dumb luck and after changing out several parts, I found the barrel manufacturer had not drilled the gas port all the way through which minimize the gas getting to the operating rod piston.

    Recently my son-in-law bought a CMP Garand (we have guns other than Garands!) and the hammer was following the bolt in recoil and not staying cocked after every shot. I took it home and investigated. The assembler at CMP had installed the hammer spring housing in the trigger group wrong side out. I let CMP know about it immediately and the president (or was it CEO ?) contacted me via email to assure me they would find out why that assembler wasn't paying attention or was unknowing. He thanked me for bringing it to his attention. You need to inform that dealer of his mistake so he won't do it again to someone else.

    LDBennett
  19. Zane71464

    Zane71464 Well-Known Member

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    Good to hear, problem solved!
    After buying my Stag, I went back to where I had bought it and swapped for a quad rail. (better one than what came from the factory)
    While I was there, the GS feller siad he'd put it on while I was there. I did watch him closely to make sure everything went back the way it came apart, especially the gas tube.
  20. JLA

    JLA Moderator

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    Its a simple thing to overlook especially with the clamp on gas blocks they seem to be using more and more these days. Good ol pin on never had this problem.
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