Nazi Star?

Discussion in 'Curio & Relics Forum' started by cointoss2, Mar 4, 2003.

  1. cointoss2

    cointoss2 Guest

    8mmSteyr
    Member
    Posts: 8
    (11/10/02 9:56:11 am)
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    Anybody know about the Nazi marked Star 9mm's on the auction sites? I had one in my hand yesterday (a Star, not a nazi) and was impressed with the fit and finish.
    Are there any crusty crufflers of fine spanish pistols out there that know the lowdown on what may be my next C&R purchase?
    "Leave the gun,...take the cannoli."

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2984
    (11/10/02 7:28:16 pm)
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    Yep.....Bob in St. Louis is our expert on Spanish Potmetal Pistols.

    What he doesn't know about 'em, ain't worth knowing.

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3265
    (11/10/02 9:25:53 pm)
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    Put down the Star and RUN, do not walk, RUN away!

    The so called Star B pistols with the Nazi markings are mostly fakes. 99% of them you see available right now are from a Bulgarian delivery contract, which was delivered to the Ministry of War in Sophia, Bulgaria around the same time as the Nazi delivery contract. These Bulgarians were never Nazi marked. The ones showing up on the market now were stamped with the waffenamts a year or two ago by an enterprising European Dealer who knew he could make more money on the American market with them if they had the Nazi markings. The Bulgarian contract pistols have been selling for about $140 to $160. With the fake markings, they have been bringing $199 from Coles, and now SOG has them back in their listings at $279 or some stupidly high figure. I have seen folks listing them on the auction sites for upwards of $500.

    CHECK IT OUT THOROUGHLY! REQUEST THE SERIAL NUMBER AND CHECK BACK WITH ME HERE. I have listings of the true Nazi contract and the Bulgarian serial numbers.
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    8mmSteyr
    Member
    Posts: 9
    (11/10/02 10:01:06 pm)
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    Thanks Bob.
    It's a pity since these pistols were magnificent.
    Are the $140-160 ones refinished as well? And who has them? I've never been a fan of the 9mm or of Spanish pistols (forgive me), but this gun got my attention.
    Actually, the fraudulent ones should me marked down below $140 that the unmarked pistols bring since they are "damaged".
    I'm kind of pissed that the guy didn't tell me about all this, and he must have known, but he said he had ALOT of them, so I suppose he wanted to move them.
    I'm glad I asked before buying, I would be REALLY upset to find all this out after the sale. So thanks for the heads up.
    BTW, he wants $225 each.





    Cranky collector of cool Austrian-Hungarian carbines, Steyr rules.

    "Leave the gun,...take the cannoli."

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3267
    (11/11/02 6:31:39 am)
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    All the ones I have seen were arsenal refinished - that was one of the tell-tale signs on the waffenamts - if you look closely with a magnifying glass, you can tell it was applied after the pistol was reblued.

    SOG has the unmarked Star B pistols, or at least used to have them.
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    Stenguns
    Member
    Posts: 1
    (1/11/03 2:21:50 pm)
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    Hi,
    I just bought tree of the Nazi Star B pistols from SOG. I'm concerned after what I've heard that the Waffenampts might have been faked. Here's what I got:
    1) s/n 229944 with plastic grips dated N with ~ over it (1943?)
    2) s/n 232508 with wood grips dated same as above
    3) s/n 238850 with wood grips dated same as above
    Guns # 2 and # 3 have had the slides re-numbered. There is the original last four digits of the s/n hatched out and have been re-numbered in smaller numbers with the last three digits of the s/n stamped on the frame. Gun # 1 appears to have an unaltered slide.
    The guns which I initially thought were'nt import marked have cleverly had the import markings hidden on the frame behind the slide release. The import marks are "PWA RDMD WA" presubably for Pac-West Arms of Redmond (or is it Olympia?), Washington. I assume they are now defunct as I have been able to find out very little about them.
    So, what is the verdict? Are they fakes? If so, SOG is getting them back with a nasty letter from me. Thanks for your help!!
    Vic B.

    Stenguns
    Member
    Posts: 2
    (1/11/03 2:25:15 pm)
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    Hi,
    Another dumb question. The guns are stamped 9mm. I assumed this was for 9mm Parabellum. Is this correct or is it 9mm Largo? Thanks!
    Vic B.

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3602
    (1/11/03 3:32:53 pm)
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    Sorry bud, you have been had. Those are all Bulgarian contracts - interesting though, you have one from each of the three shipments to Bulgaria. This further helps us define this as a random stamping by the European distributor since this was examples from the three different shipments.

    The 9mm is your common 9mm Parabellum or 9mm Luger. SOG up to about 6 months ago was selling the unstamped Bulgarians for about $140 each. Hate to ask what you got screwed on these. I would definately send them back. The problem is, the market is now getting flooded with these fakes, and people are believing them.

    If it was an authentic German contract, you would be expecting to pay closer to $500 a piece for them.

    Welcome to the forums!

    Stenguns
    Member
    Posts: 3
    (1/11/03 4:07:22 pm)
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    Thanks for the info. Can you give me the serial number ranges for the Bulgarian contract guns? Were these indeed sent for use by the Bulgarian Secret Police? Thanks!
    Vic B.

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3603
    (1/11/03 8:36:01 pm)
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    First of all - these were Bulgarian Army issue. As to Secret Police - who knows. It appears they were likely refinished and stored shortly after the war.

    The following serial numbers are the actual Nazi German delivery contracts:

    First Variation: 4000 pistols, not Waffenampt, delivered to occupied France on May 15 and 28, 1942. Serials 210951-214950

    Second Variation: 7,999 pistols delivered to German headquarters in Hendaye, France on July 26, 1943. Waffenampt WaA251. 4,000 for Army, 3,999 for Navy. Army: 214953-216200; 216251-217502; 222457-222675; 222701-222750; 223776-225006. Navy: 217503-218042;218044-218048; 218050-218123; 218125-219400; 219501-219530; 219532-219950; 220026-220942; 220944-221200; 221976-222456,

    Third Variation delivered May 29, 1944, 5000 pistols. Army: 244503-247002, Navy 242003-244502. Patr. 08 added to slide inscription. Waffenampt WaAD20.

    Fourth Variation delivered June 6, 1944 to Hendaye. 8000 pistols, 248001-254300, and 254551-256250.

    Fifth Variation - never made it to Germans. Serial No. 256251-258000, and 260001-260250. These were sold after the war to West German Police and many marked "LPN"

    Now, this is what is recorded by Echeverria (Star); however, as has often been proven in the past, the factory records for the war production years in the Eibar region are often vague, not well kept, and often (who would believe!) fudged so that Franco's flunkys didn't know the real numbers.




    As to Bulgarian contract: Page 343 of Len Antaris' new book "Star Pistols:

    "---Star received a large order for 15,000 Model Bs from the Ministry of War in Sofia, Bulgaria. --- Shipment to Bulgaria was effected in three equal blocks of 5,000 pistols between September 1943 and March 1944:

    09-09-43; serial ranges 225007-225775 and 226101-230331

    02-12-43; serial ranges 230332-230375, 230826-231756, and 231758-235782

    23-03-44; serial ranges 235901-240900

    The B pistols used by Bulgaria were marked as standard commercial guns and issued without a specific acceptance proof. Over 50 years later a number of these pistols were released as surplus. The majority of the guns were reblued. As sales were slow, at least one European dealer took to marking the guns with a E/WaA 251 proof as found on the early B pistols accepted by the Nazis. This postwar counterfeit marking should not be confused as an original stamp."



    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3604
    (1/11/03 8:43:21 pm)
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    By the way - all the distributors selling these advertise them as "German Marked" - NOT Nazi issued, WWII, issued, etc. As far as advertising, this is legally correct - They are German Marked! In fact, I could go get a brand new S&W in 40S&W caliber, get me a waffenamt die, stamp it, and sell it as "German Marked"!

    Stenguns
    Member
    Posts: 4
    (1/12/03 4:21:21 pm)
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    Hi Bob,
    Your information has been extremely helpful! Thanks for taking the time to bring the entire serial number list to this board. I now know that I was sold fakes, no doubt in my mind. SOG is advertising these with the following ad heading:
    "Rare! Nazi Star B 9mm with Nazi Ordnance Inspector Stamp"
    The go on to say in the text of the ad:
    "These Star WWII 9mm pistols are German proofed with Waffenamt (sp?) mark on back of the receiver and are very limited in quantity....but NOT in quality! These are a must for collectors! All are in very good condition and come with two mags and a holster.
    HURRY... supply is limited! ONLY $295.00 each (retail $450.00)"
    Well, it's funny, I had a customer waiting for these and he came over today ready to plunk down his credit card for $450.00 plus tax and, once I told him the story, he walked. Who wouldn't?? At least I can sleep at night. SOG's getting a call from me tomorrow!
    Thanks for your help.
    Vic Benson

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3608
    (1/12/03 5:32:15 pm)
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    "Rare! Nazi Star B 9mm with Nazi Ordnance Inspector Stamp"
    The go on to say in the text of the ad:
    "These Star WWII 9mm pistols are German proofed with Waffenamt (sp?) mark on back of the receiver and are very limited in quantity....but NOT in quality! These are a must for collectors! All are in very good condition and come with two mags and a holster.
    HURRY... supply is limited! ONLY $295.00 each (retail $450.00)"

    Notice how they say "stamped" and "Mark" and "proofed" but never actually say German inventory or German WWII issued? Well, that's because they know better, and are avoiding falling in that legal trap. What they are advertising is what they are selling. Of course, they can be marked at any time, and they are not authentic, but hey, they never make that claim!

    Tell them you want some of the Bulgarian Star B pistols they are selling at $145 each - very same thing (sans waffenamt) - now I think those are worth the money! You can get two of those for the price of one with a fake waffenamt!

    WyomingSwede
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 675
    (1/12/03 9:10:48 pm)
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    Bob...all I can say is: WOW...you da man!!!


    swede
    Wyoming Swede

    Stenguns
    Member
    Posts: 5
    (1/14/03 10:56:25 am)
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    Bob,
    Yes, you are the man. I've already got my three pistols packed and ready to ship back to SOG. They say their buyer didn't know but I only talked to lady on the phone. I'll be passing the word along to everyone I know about these. Posted at Sten9mm@yahoogroups.com where I can be found hanging out much of the time as well as emailed a guy who has some on auction on Gunbroker and Auctionarms. Now, if he sells them, he'll know he's ripping off his customers.
    Vic Benson

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3531
    (1/15/03 8:54:00 am)
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    PotMetalBob strikes again!

    mckheean
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 113
    (1/15/03 10:08:12 am)
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    Thanks Bob for the info,I have been wanting one of these from SOG but I will look elsewhere with the info you gave. Benny
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