The Firearms Forum banner

Need help: Black Powder Cartridges Breaking

2K views 12 replies 6 participants last post by  BlackEagle 
#1 ·
We have a puzzler here. These are brand new 45-70 Winchester cases being shot in a Remington Rolling Block rifle chambered for 45-90. The cartridges are loaded with 65 gr Swiss #2 covered by a vegie wad and topped off with a 520 grain head rolled in paper. The head is just pushed into the case. We press down on the head again before loading to make sure the head is hard against the wad, to ensure no air space.

A couple of months ago one of the guys at the club fired about a dozen rounds of this ammunition through the gun with no problem. He got good groups after sighting it in. It was shooting consistantly. The gun was cleaned afterwards.

We had this gun out this weekend, same ammunition only a couple of months older now, still brand new cases. This time we fired five rounds. On the fifth round the case broke. The shooting was all over the place for the first four rounds.

This same thing happened a couple of years ago. The cases broke when the gun was fired. Those cases had been reloaded, so we got new cases. Now it's doing the same thing. Any ideas?

Apologies: I should have taken a picture of a complete unfired cartridge. If necessary, I can get one. Wood Brass Hardwood Metal Wood stain
The broken cartridge has stretched. The one on the left is unfired brass.

Wood Ammunition Bullet Brass Hardwood


Tan Metal Button Brass Silver
Winchester 45-70 Brass. Unfired.
 
See less See more
3
#2 ·
It's a mystery to me too!:D I don't know a dang thang about BP firearms. But should you shoot a .45-90 in a 45-70?
 
#3 ·
I am reliably informed by the owner that it's like shooting .38's in a .357. He has been shooting BP cartridge for decades, reloading his own ammunition. He won the competitions so many years running he finally decided to let some of the rest of us have a go. I've won a few trophies using his gun cartridge and m/l BP rifles. He's generous and helpful that way. He's meticulous with his reloading.
 
#4 ·
You're fine shooting 2.1 cases in a 2.4 chamber. Not necessarily desirable but it shouldn't hurt anything....unless some of the cases might be too thick for the chamber. 2.4 cases are readily available....if maybe a little pricey.

You do have a head scratcher. The only thing I can think to do is make a chamber cast using Cerrosafe, compare it to your loads and see if that tells you anything. It almost appears the chamber might be a tight one but without having the rifle and ammo in hand it's rather difficult to say anything definitely. Do you have a long shooting history with the rifle or is it new to you? Is it an original or a replica? I have a couple old German rifles that were not chambered to what the proofs were stamped....thus always a chamber cast with any old rifle I acquire.....and I'm just throwing things out there, speculating.

I've had a few case separations over the years but the reason was always evident. This one is a bit perplexing.
 
#5 ·
#6 ·
Thanks much guys for the ideas. I'm hoping my friend who owns the gun is following this discussion, but I'll keep passing the info on. He is completely baffled.

Please keep the ideas coming. We're grasping at straws here.
 
#7 ·
I just talked with my friend; he has been follwing this thread with great interest.

He has a theory: If the bullets were made with soft lead they could expand at the base and tear the case apart as they are fired. He is going to try to find a way of checking how hard the lead is onthose bullets, and possibly find anothe source for them.
 
#9 ·
That doesn't sound even plausible. I've been shooting 25-1 and 30-1 alloy, pretty soft, over black powder since the mid-80's and never had a case separation. Bear in mind that when paper patch bullets were very frequently used they were straight lead and many...perhaps most....use straight lead for paper patch today. If such were the case it would be a common occurrence....but I've been wrong before.

A Brinnel hardness tester will give the hardness of the alloy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BlackEagle
#10 ·
#11 ·
Thanks, sharps4590. We'll have to keep looking for a solution.

These were moulded bullets, made by a friend of his. He said he would try to source some store bought ones, maybe without the paper.
 
#12 ·
Only thing I can come up with, and I don't know if this would cause it, is that because you are not crimping, and you are using a shorter cartridge than it is chambered for, the bullet is moving forward in the chamber (before firing), thus leaving an airspace between the wad and the bullet base.

Try crimping them and see if the problem goes away.

I've read of people, with single-shots, not even removing the bell, so the edge of the bell helps center the cartridge, which makes sure the bullet is perfectly centered in the bore when it hits the rifling. But that was with a 45/70 load in a 45/70 chamber. The quarter-inch of leade in the 45/90 chamber could be allowing the bullet to move.
 
#13 ·
Thanks, Alpo;

I'll remind my friend to check the thread.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top