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New Doppler Radar Chronograph

10K views 32 replies 13 participants last post by  texdon 
#1 · (Edited)
Wow, I had missed seeing any reports on this till now, but it was at the 2014 Shot Show. It's called LabRadar, and potentially looks very interesting.

Like the MagnetoSpeed, no down range components are necessary (no sky screens and such). Unlike the MagnetoSpeed, nothing has to be attached to your gun, either. The thing is set next to you and pointed at your target. Works under any lighting conditions.

Even more interesting, it measures a number of velocities - from muzzle out to 100 yards. Supposedly it also works with about anything - bows, pistols, rifles. And it apparently will link to smartphones and tablets via bluetooth. The price is supposed to be somewhere under $500. I sure want to see some reviews of this thing!

I posted this under re-loading, since most guys who use a chronograph are doing so to test their loads.



Here's the company link: http://www.mylabradar.com/#About-Us
 
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#5 ·
And if it is at your shooting station how does it get aimed to measure velocity at the target? Or even to get the velocity exactly at the muzzle? $500 compared to less than $100 for a Chrony??

This is a LAB instrument, as the name implies, probably intended for a single lane indoor range. It does not seem to translate to the ranges most of us shoot at. The principal is valid (doppler radar) but what does it give for a result as it follows the bullet to the target with the bullet velocity changing all the way to the target?

LDBennett
 
#6 ·
LD, this isn't a lab instrument, it is a field instrument...developed from industrial/military doppler radar tech.
I do think you might have problems with it at a real busy range, but that all depends on how well they have the transducer implemented.
Generally they'll have a directional waveguide to target a specific direction...it could be a full 360° sweep though too if they wanted it to be.

I've seen it mentioned in a couple of the shooting blogs since the SHOT show. I don't think anyone has them on the shelf yet, but for the $500 that it's thought to be priced at it is worth a closer look if you're a serious hobbyist (as in complete geek :) ).

We have several doppler sensors in use in the plant where I work and yes the thought has crossed my mind that it would be a super way to get ballistic info. Just like piezo is the way to go to get pressure data these days compared to the old school method of crush pellets.
I am surprised that they can get the price point for a transducer and the controls down to that level. The industrial sensors are still quite a bit higher so I'm wondering what corners are cut to get there. But then again chonograph prices have dropped tremendously in recent years too so it only makes sense that radar tech does get cheaper too. Remember what an Oehler 33 used to cost back when they were pretty much the only game in town?
 
#7 ·
I think it's quite feasible, LD. At microwave frequencies, this thing can sample position information several thousand times as a bullet passes from muzzle to target. Add a precision clock and a little software and it can tell you exactly how fast and far away the projectile is all the way downrange. Rejecting close by targets on a busy range might be a problem, but they've come a long way in developing antennas to focus these things, and software range gates can limit false signals from bugs and bits of flying sand and such.

Okay, I'm a complete geek - I admit it. I'm going to have to get me one of these things, just to play with it, take it apart, kick the tires, hack the operating system with my smart phone. You know, the usual...:rolleyes:
 
#8 ·
There are lots of concerns that I would raise. Here are a few.

If the radar is at the shooting position how does it handle the changing velocity as the bullet travels to the target? Peak Vel, Average Vel? Or ??????

The technology does not surprise me as you can buy a hand held radar gun for next to nothing (I have one in fact and have had it for about 10 years). It was not $500 either. The electronics get smaller and smaller and with computer technology in about everything imaginable, doing a doppler radar chronograph seems easy today.

How do they aim the beam to be able to see the bullet at only the target? Is there a range limit? Is the peak velocity the muzzle velocity and the last reported velocity the velocity at the target?

Then, as you implied, what happens in an environment where the radar sees bullets from other shooters near by. Radar beams are not pin point compared to lasers, for example.

I find nothing wrong with current chronograph technology that uses a measured time over a known distance. To increase the accuracy all you need is better control of the distance and a more accurate timing device. The accuracy you get of even the simplest and inexpensive Chrony is more than accurate enough for comparison of cartridge velocities. The true velocity can vary tens of FPS from shot to shot anyway. I do admit setting up a chronograph so you don't shoot it and can still shoot at a target at extended ranges is not fun. And that is the reason I don't use mine anymore. The lack of a setup with the doppler radar unit might make it so that I'd use a chronograph more often but I actually don't get much information from knowing the velocity of my load being tested. I don't much care what the velocity is. All the specs the chronograph returns rarely relates to the most accurate load unless there is a real problem with the load. My measure is the accuracy (group size) that guides my reloading. And I never exceed max loads in manuals either.

This is an interesting machine but I think it doomed for the mass gun market. Manufactures might use it and it certainly might be a good addition for a race track (vehicles). It is way too pricey for "home" consumption, in my opinion.

Anyway that's my opinion and yours may vary.

As an aside I spent 30+ years as an engineer designing radar processing equipment for military radar systems both ground and airborne. I do understand doppler radar or at least I did 16 years ago when I retired. Today, I easily forget where I left my car keys!

LDBennett
 
#9 · (Edited)
On another forum a poster had inquired if other shooter's bullets would interfere. The response was:

"The LabRadar accuracy will not be affected by other shots being fired into your radar beam. Part of the technology built into the system allows it to determine if the shot came from very near the radar unit or if it came in from another location. Since the radar beam is only active for a fraction of a second it is nearly impossible for you to receive a velocity from another shooter nearby.

Best regards,

Richard Mouser
LabRadar"

My Gun Culture website reported from the Shot Show that "This unit uses radar, not optics, to measure the speed of a bullet leaving the barrel. Not only that, it continues to measure velocity as the bullet travels down range – out to about 100 yards. So you’ll know muzzle velocity, velocity 25 yards down range, 50 yards and 100 yards.

The best part is that it doesn’t care about light conditions or the “shininess” of your bullet. You’ll get accurate readings no matter what. As I recall, the unit pulses 4,000 times per second to track velocity."

Apparently the unit starts tracking your bullet from the "muzzle blast" out to about 100 yards. By "muzzle blast" I don't think that means sound, but rather the disurbance in air - since it is based on doppler.

The company website says:
"What data does LabRadar provide?
LabRadar provides minimum/maximum velocities, extreme spread, average velocity and standard deviation of a shot series. Velocities are constantly tracked and recorded at various distances along the flight path.

How reliable is the LabRadar?
Infinition, the company that created and manufactures the LabRadar has been designing and manufacturing high end instrumentation radars for more than a decade. Infinition’s high end radars are used daily by professionals at various Research Centers, Ballistic Laboratories and Proving Grounds around the world. The LabRadar has been built from the same technology inside Infinition’s high end radars and brings that technology in the hands of the shooters and hunters, providing an accurate and reliable way to measure the velocity of various projectiles."

Oh, one other tidbit from their website - "Users will be able to enter their projectile weight to have each shots kinetic energy displayed next to the distance and velocity. A Power Factor Rating will also be included for IPSC Shooters."

We won't know for sure how good it really is, of course, until actual test reviews are available. I saw references of the price point to be around $400.00 to $500.00. If it comes in at a reasonable amount of money and performs as claimed, I think it will sell. I guess I'm among the tech geeks that would put it on my wish list.
 
#10 ·
LD, I would certainly concede that you know your radar! How they managed to aim the beams at all was black magic to me. In fact, in college, we called the Electromagnetic Fields class, 'Electromagic Fields." But given that they can focus a beam that tight (assuming a 6' wide target at 300 feet would require a beam divergence of < 0.06°), it's easy to calculate the distance and speed of the bullet.

At 3000 fps it would take the bullet 0.1 sec to reach the target, so if the radar emits pulses at a rate of 10 MHz, there would be 1 million samples from which to calculate the distance and speed at any point from muzzle to target. That would have been a challenge back in my day as an electronics engineer, but today's circuitry wouldn't even be breathing heavy. I know that, even back when I was doing the missile thing we had signal processing capability to allow using radar to single out a specific target in a cloud of false decoys, so I can only imagine what they can do now.

I have to agree that this is probably doomed as a mass market device. Even though all that information is available, who needs it? Why would an average shooter, or even a fairly avid ( not nutty like me ) reloader care? What you do is measure the end result, and that's what puts meat on the table and trophies on the mantle. As you say, knowing the group size, and where it's going to hit is what matters. Still, it will be fun to play with one when I can afford it.:D
 
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#12 ·
Hi guys, long time luker here but thought I'd chime in. My truck got broke into and they stole my CE pro chrono (along with my spotting scope) and after many months I decided I'd get myself the magnetospeed as a birthday present.

I liked everything about that chronograph but was concerned about using it with handguns. After sometime I thought I'd just buy it as well as another CE chronograph just for handguns... Then I saw the ad for the Labradar, and the price wasn't too much more on the top of the two chronographs I planned on ordering, and truth be told I was enjoying a little too much whisky and ordered the Labradar. The next morning I thought about it and was about to cancel the order but they had already charged my card, a fact that my wife told me about. I suppose it being my birthday and all caused my wife to not say a thing, so I played along and will have the Labradar in a couple of weeks. :)

I'll let y'all know how it goes.
 
#15 ·
I'd be willing to pay a guy $10 at the range to loan me his chrono. I cannot justify buying one just yet even though I can easily afford it. Right now, in my 'early years' of reloading I am basing my loads on historical facts and data of both book reload recipes and first hand experience. I cannot justify spending any more than $100 on a Chrono...my mind works like this.."That's $100 toward a nice investment on another Colt". :D
 
#17 ·
What part of Oregon? I sometimes hit the north and eastern part about once or twice a year. Bend is a common place for us.

I absolutely stay away from the People's Republic of Eugene, and the closer I get to CA border, the more the hairs stand up on the back of my arse. :)
 
#19 ·
I will take you up on that offer next time we mosey that direction. And the invite is open to our gun club if you make it up yonder to Enumclaw/Buckley area of Washington. :)

By the way, were you or are you an offroader? I used to belong to an offroad 4x4 club for FJ Cruisers back 10 years ago and there was a guy with a nickname Tex..something. Just wondering if that was you?
 
#25 ·
A fellow at my range has one of these. I've never seen one before and was interested so I asked him about it. He said it took him awhile to get things set up but once he did figure it all out he's quite happy with it.

I'm in need of a chrono myself. Trying to develope loads that I can put through the same hole as the previous one I would think knowing velocity would help tremendously but I'm not willing to spend the price for this one.
 
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#26 ·
"Need" "Toy"....well I guess if you're happy thinking you know what your bullets are doing-that's groovy.Chances are about 85% that whatever load in the manual-is NOT your rifle,barrel length,etc...so their velocity is different.It's like people that think they can tell the range-love'm...dropped a deer at 300yds-except when I paced it-it was 125yds.don't know how many times I've done that-now,it's just "sure Jim".I like chronos and view them as a good tool for reloaders.
 
#27 ·
I finally got to the range yesterday and tried the Lab Radar out and it's pretty cool.

I shot my AR with 55Gr FMJ with 25.5 grains of Varget. Then a 6.8 SPC with 90gr SP (Winchester white box), and finished up with some Winchester 150Gr 30-30.

I just picked the 30-30 up from a local gunsmith who gave them a going over. It, and two other lever guns were my dads. They haven't been shot in 35+ years (by me as a 11-12 year old) so I'm so happy to have this gun working!

Here are some photos and I'll follow up with some observations later.
Machine

Land lot Technology Plain Machine Office equipment

Wood Hardwood Machine Ammunition Shotgun

Technology Land lot Machine Gas Pasture
 

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#30 · (Edited)
You set it to the left/right of the muzzle. There is a notch on the center top of the unit that you aim at your target. The Lab Radar uses a microphone to sense the shot and the tracks the bullet. You can adjust the sensativity of the microphone.

Next to me a guy with a 300 win-mag and muzzle break started shooting and triggered the unit. However, you can change the sensitivity and source to fix this.

Electronic device Red Technology Machine Gas
 
#32 ·
This is a radar system and the large flat plate is the transmitting and receiving antenna. The return signal is analyzed by the device and the velocity of the bullet is determined by measuring the frequency shift of the return. The transmitted frequency is shifted in the return signal by the bullet. This is the Doppler effect. It is similar to the frequency change you hear from a train driving away from you (frequency of sound goes down). The Doppler shift effect is used in all modern military radars for determining velocity.

This is so much better than regular chronographs that measure a time of flight across its sensors placed a known distance apart. Those units calculate distance divided by time. They have to be down range and suffer the potential of the sensors or, on some units, the entire device getting shot. But this particular device is very expensive and as velocity measurement is really only for the curious as the benefits of knowledge does not justify the extreme cost. There is little to no correspondence in the real world of accuracy and velocity. A string of closely matched velocities of bullets does not always and almost rarely corresponds to the best groups.

LDBennett
 
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