New guy -- old unknown double gun

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by john_bud, May 14, 2011.

  1. john_bud

    john_bud New Member

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    Hi,

    New guy here. I've been trying to determine what the heck it is my dad brought back from Germany after WW2. I did search the forum but didn't find anything like it. It's a double gun, rifle on the right and shotgun on the left that uses cartridges but has no firing pins. It has double top striking hammers that are flat with a step and the top where they strike is flat with a slight recess on the barrel side and a channel in the face of the barrels. The gun is beautifully made - obviously from a master craftsman with tons of detail. The only words on it are on the center band between the barrels (picture). Any help in identifying the gun would be greatly appreciated!

    Thanks, jb

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    On edit: I forgot to mention that the parts do have a serial number. But it's a single digit!
    Last edited: May 14, 2011
  2. hrf

    hrf Active Member

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    Last edited: May 14, 2011
  3. john_bud

    john_bud New Member

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    Pinfire? I just googled it up -- what a unique method of firing a round off!

    Also just double checked under the barrels. No proof marks, no caliber, nothing except for the serial number that is on each part (and a single digit at that!)

    Thanks for the info, I try to contact them
  4. lefaucheux 54

    lefaucheux 54 Member

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  5. RJay

    RJay Active Member

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    :D And that's why you can't locate the firing pins:D
  6. john_bud

    john_bud New Member

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    Yeah, I knew there was an explanation, but dog-gone if I could figure it out without help from here!:D


    lefaucheux 54, thanks for the links. It's good to see similar pieces. Also interesting to see the dates in the 1840's and 1850's! Too bad they don't include estimates of value.
  7. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    There may be city or guild proof marks, but the gun antedates the 1891 German national proof laws.

    Jim
  8. lefaucheux 54

    lefaucheux 54 Member

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    Hello ,
    It's part of my collection , they aren't for sale.
    ...gonna try to translate some of theme.
    Greetings from Normandy in France
    LF
  9. lefaucheux 54

    lefaucheux 54 Member

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  10. flintlock

    flintlock Active Member

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    That's a very nice old drilling. Birds to boar all in one hunting trip!
  11. hrf

    hrf Active Member

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    No drilling shown (Drillings have three barrels)
  12. Hawg

    Hawg Active Member

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    Unfortunately there's not much collector interest in pinfires.
  13. lefaucheux 54

    lefaucheux 54 Member

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    Why ??
  14. Hawg

    Hawg Active Member

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    That I don't know.
  15. lefaucheux 54

    lefaucheux 54 Member

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    Hello John Bud
    Can you show us some pictures of what is marked under the barrels and elsewhere on the rifle.
    Bockwordt in Olendburg isn't mentionned in my books ....
    Perhaps only the seller.
    If you show us the proofmark I can eventuelly tel you the or période of makin , the country and with a little chance the gunsmidt how made it ....

    Thanks
    LF
  16. john_bud

    john_bud New Member

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    Thank you for the excellent translation. Your English is 1,000,000 times better than my French. :D

    Here are some views of the hidden areas : A bit redundant, but I wanted to get different angles and light in case there was some faint mark that I am missing.

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  17. Hawg

    Hawg Active Member

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    Thats an assembly number to keep track of all the parts before assembly.
  18. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    The story of assembly numbers is interesting. Since they wanted to produce a nice gun for the customer, the whole gun was assembled "in the white" (with no finish and no hardening), and hand fitted as necessary. Then the parts were given a final polish, blued or case hardened or whatever, and re-assembled. The numbers made sure the previously fitted parts were assembled correctly.

    Just some FWIW based on a e-mail question. The man wanted to know how they managed to get the screw slots all lined up on the old guns. The answer is simple, though not obvious. The screws were made wtih extra thick heads, with normal slots. After they were tightened down, the projecting sides were marked with the right direction, the screw removed, and the head cut down to the proper height. The new slot was then cut, using the marks for alignment, and the marks polished off. This was, of course, very tedious, time consuming and expensive, and by the early 20th century it was done only on the most expensive guns. Today such care is rare and few customers would notice it if it were done.

    Jim
  19. lefaucheux 54

    lefaucheux 54 Member

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    Only with a 3 .... we won't go very far.....
    No name in the "platine" I don't know the english word for it ... the metallic piece with the hammer and the mecanisme..
    The place on the upper side and between the barrels was principally used by the one how sold it ...
    This rifle is to nice looking to have been made in a big serie.... so there must be somewhere an indication

    LF
  20. john_bud

    john_bud New Member

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    LF, I'll take a very close look at all the gun to see if there are any marks on it anywhere. My suspicion is that any marks might be under a metal piece and that it would take un-screwing screws to get to it. I am not feeling brave enough to do that!

    Jim, You know, I was actually wondering how they got the screws all lined up too! It might have been expensive, but is sure does make the gun look "finished".

    For a gun that is 150 years old or more, it is incredibly tight. There isn't slop or wobble in any of the parts. Everything moves smoothly with consistent friction. Obviously, the master craftsmen that built it knew their craft far better than I can express.
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