New poll in Germany....on Adolf

Discussion in 'General Military Arms & History Forum' started by ysacres, Mar 7, 2003.

  1. ysacres

    ysacres Well-Known Member

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    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3673
    (9/7/02 12:30:02 am)
    Reply New Poll in Germany...on Adolf
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    On the way home from work today I caught part of a news report on "Anti-Semitism on the rise in Germany" on the radio.

    I wish I would have caught the numbers, maybe somebody else caught it, but it started with "24% of Germans today think Jews have too much influence on world politics."

    But that wasn't the one that got me thinking, heck, if you consider what's happening in Israel today I thought that may be light.

    BUT, I didn't catch the percentage, but it was like 30-40% of Germans think that "If it wasn't for the Holocaust, Adolf Hitler would be considered a 'Great Statesman' today."

    That got me to thinking, Germans must think like Bill Clinton. It depends on what the definition of "Holocaust" is.

    Do they only consider the 6-8 million Jews he killed? Or do they also consider the 12 million "others" he also killed, like Eastern Europeans, POWs, Gypsies, the mentally and physically disabled, even fellow Germans, along with anybody ELSE that disagreed with him/them?

    Do they consider the "Holocaust" to include the diabolical medical experiments, the invention and development of nerve gas, the deliberate machine gunning of refugees?

    How about slave labor? The actual planning of meals to give just enough caloric intake to get X amount of months of work out of the people displaced to give lebensraum to the "Superior" German people before the slaves starved to death?




    Much less world domination?








    'Great Statesman' my ASS.....









    Hell, don't get me started...but that's one reason I don't really like Germans....
    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    1952Sniper
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    (9/9/02 10:33:25 am)
    Reply Re: New Poll in Germany...on Adolf
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    Ok, first, I'm NOT saying in any way, shape, or form that I agree with anything Hitler did to Jews or prisoners or refugees or anyone else. The National Socialist party (Nazis) did a lot of horrible things, and history has punished them for it.

    Having said that, Hitler was indeed a great statesman. He was an excellent orator. He could sway any crowd. Plus, he was a common man from the working class, not some polished politician. I think that this is the sentiment the Germans are expressing. He was a popular guy. He gave the Germans pride again, after having been stomped in the "Great War". He stimulated their economy and brought the country back together. Unfortunately, he couldn't stop there, and went on to ruin a good thing. He did have phychological problems (issues with his mother), and tended to blame everything on Jews. I don't blame the guy for his own personal feelings, but the fact that he did so much evil because of his feelings is what made him the ultimate demon to the world.

    I really feel sorry for the present German population. They have grown up with the whole world seeing them as evil. They are still paying (literally) for the sins of their fathers (reference the recent sum paid to holocaust survivors and families, costing the German population millions, even billions of dollars/euros). They have a proud heritage, and they were once a great people. I think the U.S. gave them a fair shake after the war, but the Russians really abused them. Even to this day, they are very reluctant to send troops anywhere, for fear of their reputation. The world simply isn't ready to see German troops on foreign soil, even as allies of the US or UN. They are really trying very hard to overcome their reputation.

    They have been made to feel guilty for any anti-semitic feelings, or any racial tension whatsoever since the war. As a result, the Jewish population has really gained an advantage, and their country has recently been taken over by Turkish immigrants. They keep having to grit their teeth and take it, lest the world come down on them again. Kinda like us with the slavery reparations issue. And you have to keep in mind that Europe is a different place than America. They don't have the "melting pot" idea, nor do they want it. Germany, by all rights, should be left to the Germans. It's their right to preserve their culture and history, and not be diluted by other races. They just need to find a civil way of doing it.

    I spent several years in Germany in the '80s, so I do have a somewhat decent perspective on the German point of view. They are not an evil people. Don't judge the people by the actions during WWII. We Americans have done plenty of evil things in the world. But as the victors of most major wars, we have the ability to write the history books as we see fit. Just as I think America is a good country with good people, I also see the Germans as good people, despite what was done in the past.

    And by the way, the holocaust under Hitler's regime was not the worst massacre of Jews in history. The Russians still hold that record. Look into the "pogromes" (sp?) by Stalin and his buddies. The USSR did more evil to more people than any other nation in recorded history.

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (9/9/02 1:01:09 pm)
    Reply Re: New Poll in Germany...on Adolf
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    Won't excuse or alibi for the Nazis OR the Russian communists before, during and after WWII.

    There's a lot of food for thought in the above comments.

    When do you relent in the punishment of a nation for wrong committed by past generations? Japan seemed to come out from under the blanket in 1950, the first to do so, even though they were the only ones to directly attack US soil. Italy was basically forgiven in 1943 when the king fired Moussillini (sp) and we invaded. Finland and Norway were immediately forgiven for fighting on Germany's side when the war ended.

    For some reason, the world maintained a grudge against the germans until even the present day. I think the Russians and Jews have had a lot to do with keeping the WWII image of Germany alive for present generations to view. Agreed, these two ethnic groups had the most loss at the hands of both Hitler and Stalin - horrible slaughter for no reason other than the desire to wipe out "unclean" or "politically incorrect" people.

    We should never forget what ocurred in those times, lest they be repeated. That doesn't mean we should hold those of later generations accountable for their father's sins, UNLESS they also, trod the same worn path.

    I think the present day Germany can contribute enormously to the world if allowed to do so. They will most probably always have their fringe radical groups just as most countries, including the US, have that will try to foment trouble for the elected government. Hopefully, the calmer more moderate citizens will see through the hyperboyle and continue with a stable government.

    Is this a Polyanna view? Don't think so - just a little common sense.
    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"

    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
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    (9/9/02 3:13:31 pm)
    Reply Re: New Poll in Germany...on Adolf
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    I don't want to beat this subject into the ground, but that's exactly my point. The German people have a really neat culture. It tends to be a little socialist, as do most European cultures these days, but other than that, they really are wonderful people. And we owe a lot of our American heritage to German culture (especially here in the Texas Hill Country). It just really ticks me off that most people, when asked what they think of Germans, immediately say either Lederhosen and oompah music or Nazis. There is so much more to Germany than that. And in this day and age where the world is becoming polarized into "Christian" and "Muslim" cultures, we gotta keep our friends close to us.

    The German government has done a lot to curb any type of racism or violence. They don't have the free speech laws like we do, so they keep a pretty tight lid on that kind of stuff. They have "grown up" as a society and learned the basic laws of good and bad. And believe it or not, they do harbor a bit of a grudge against America. Not anything like the current breed of America-haters, but they still feel the pain we inflicted on them during and after the war. My brother's mother-in-law is a full-blooded German-speaking woman who immigrated to America. She tells stories of when we fire-bombed Dresden to intentionally target civilians and scare the hell out of the Germans. Most of the people in Germany were just as scared of the Nazis as they were of us. Yet they continue to be held accountable for the actions of the people we prosecuted at the Nuremburg trials.

    Again, I don't condone any of the behavior of the NS party, and I do believe that Germany still owes the holocaust survivors something. But it's been 57 years since we beat them on the battlefield, and they've spent most of that time suffering at the hands of the communists (even well after re-unification). It's time we let the stigma go.
    Sie lesen deine Gedanken, und bohren in dein Gehirn. Feind hört mit....

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3679
    (9/10/02 11:05:38 pm)
    Reply Re: New Poll in Germany...on Adolf
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    I may be biased, and I ask forgiveness in advance, but to that "Great Culture" crap I say Bullpuckey.

    They are not and have not ANY claim to having any GREATER "history" or "culture" or "society" than ANY other European people or nation.

    What they have is a GREAT big friggen ego coupled with a mistaken notion of military prowess and glory that stretches back to the Teutonic knights, heck, probably back to the GAULS that makes them think THEY are the "Greatest" the "Best" the "Superior" the "Most...(fill in the blank.) It echoes today "German Engineering" "German Precision" ad nauseum. Are they good? YES. Superior to EVERYTHING else the world has to offer? NO. In cars, tanks, guns, beer, music, history ANYTHING.

    Couple that with a "Sheeple" mentality where everybody is subjugated to a PERSON, whether it be Frederick the Great, or Wilhelm Withered Hand or the Fuehrer, and you have the makings of a Proud and Viscious pack of lemmings.

    By gosh they SHOULD be held accountable, and NOT just for Hitler's excesses, but back through the course of history.

    Germany constantly needs to be knocked back into reality. I fear it will happen again. We should have DISMANTLED Germany after WWII, just like Germany, Prussia, and the Germanic people did to many of their neighbors many times ALL through history! Maybe 100 years or so of NO GERMAN NATION AT ALL IN THE WHOLE WORLD would humble them enough so they could again take their place in the civilized world (Hmmm. "The Final Partition of Germany." Has a nice ring...)

    That "superiority" crap was (is?) music to a German's ears...

    Hitler played the German people like a fiddle, he said NOTHING, he DID nothing, they did not accept, or worse WELCOMED...

    Granted, many maybe even most individual Germans are GREAT people. It's when they devolve into the unthinking unfeeling "Germanic Horde" bent on proving once again their innate "cultural" superiority they become dangerous. ANd need to be stopped.






    And it WILL happen again, just like it has happened again and again and again for 5000 years....


    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    Go Get Beer
    Member
    Posts: 24
    (9/11/02 4:16:27 am)
    Reply Re: New Poll in Germany...on Adolf
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    I can't agree here, polishshooter. The Germans have an enormous pride in their archievements (real or imaginary), but doesn't every nation? I can hear the same pride over and over again in most news, films and other propaganda works from every country I care to look at. The same pride is what most people's problem with the US is.
    Dissolving Germany wouldn't cure that, IMHO. It didn't solve it for Poland, which went from European superpower status down to nonexistence within half a century. It just caused bloodshed and bad feelings all over. Guess what, now we're back and here and there I can hear: "Let's join the EU on our conditions. We have lots to offer. Our history... Our morality... Our Christian viewpoint... Our own, private pact with God, Christ and half of the Saints..." Makes me sick. How about a stable economy, productive agriculture and an education we can be proud of? But that costs money and there are still a lot of groups that are willing to pay you to say the above things.

    Sorry for this rant.

    jimejones
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    (9/11/02 7:59:20 am)
    Reply Re: New Poll in Germany...on Adolf
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    I agree with 1952sniper and kdub01. During and after a military career I've had a longime interest in WWII and its causes. Germany desperately needed effective leadership after the first war. Unfortunately, this was provided by a charismatic and driven man who was also ultimately evil. It could happen in any country that feels threatened. It could happen in America, but not if we wisely use the privilege of free speech and the ballot. It is everyone's responsibility to look beyond the emotions of the moment and consider the morality and probable consequences of the actions of our country. One man's warped ideals transformed much of the last century. Now the collective ideals of the most powerful nation on earth should help shape a wise and humane transformation of this new century.

    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
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    (9/11/02 8:03:46 am)
    Reply Re: New Poll in Germany...on Adolf
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    polishshooter, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I think it's great that we can have these kinds of debates in a friendly manner. We'll probably never agree, but I enjoy discussing it.

    I just had one comment. It's interesting to note that a lot of the sentiment you expressed about the Germans is the same sentiment that the rest of the world is expressing about Americans right now. It's all a matter of perspective. While Germany has been (and might be again?) a formidable military force and a nation seemingly bent on world domination during times of war, they have also been very benign during peacetime. In fact, you really don't hear much out of the Germans. Whereas, the world news usually covers what the U.S. is doing as a matter of course. In my opinion, America has reached out way too far into matters that are none of our business. We help some folks, but we hurt a lot of folks too. And outside our fair-weather friends in Europe, the bulk of the world resents the hell out of us for it. I would even say that the world hates us right now more than they ever hated Germany, even when Germany was at the peak of its power. But since we're the only remaining superpower, no one would dare to challenge us militarily. Hence terrorist attacks on us. It's a global game of guerrilla warfare, and it's really shocking to see how many countries are involved in this secret war against us. It's the only way they know how to fight us without getting stomped.

    You might say, "But we're good people. The things we do to other countries are either for their own good or to further our interests". Well, the Germans felt that way even during WWII. It's not like all Germans were evil and woke up in the morning thinking "how evil can i be today?". They honestly believed that they were helping bring the rest of the world into an ordered society that would improve the lives of others, as well as further Germany's greatness as the founder of this new world order. But they knew that not everyone would join willingly. So they used force to bring other countries into the fold, but their intent was not destruction. It was to construct a new peaceful world order. Misguided, yes. But not evil, in my opinion. They did have some evil people who did evil things. But to classify the whole of Germany as evil would be like saying America is evil just because of certain acts we have committed. Remember that the majority of Germans did not even know of the wholesale slaughter of Jews. There were rumors, but most did not believe them. In fact, most Americans didn't believe it either until the camps were liberated at the war's end.

    I'm not trying to compare America to Nazi Germany. I'm just trying to get across the point that perspective is everything. Germans thought they were doing the right thing, but the rest of the world didn't. We think we are doing the right thing, but the rest of the world doesn't. See the similarity? It just depends on whether you're the nation in question, or part of the outside world looking in...

    I also think it's unfair to classify the German people as having a "superior" mentality. While there was some element to that in the Nazi era, you have to understand that the Allied propaganda machine was in full swing. There are still a lot of misrepresentations out there of what the Germans did and who they were during WWII. The propaganda that the Allies produced was intended to make the world hate the Germans, and in my opinion it went too far. Don't believe all the propaganda you see or hear, because a lot of it was either fabricated or grossly used out of context.

    Sorry for the long rant. Again, I enjoy the discussion. While I may have a soft spot for Germans, I do enjoy our American right to freely discuss whatever we want.


    Sie lesen deine Gedanken, und bohren in dein Gehirn. Feind hört mit....

    warpig883
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    (9/11/02 8:17:40 am)
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    Re: New Poll in Germany...on Adolf
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    Quote:
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    In my opinion, America has reached out way too far into matters that are none of our business. We help some folks, but we hurt a lot of folks too. And outside our fair-weather friends in Europe, the bulk of the world resents the hell out of us for it. I would even say that the world hates us right now more than they ever hated Germany, even when Germany was at the peak of its power. But since we're the only remaining superpower, no one would dare to challenge us militarily. Hence terrorist attacks on us. It's a global game of guerrilla warfare, and it's really shocking to see how many countries are involved in this secret war against us. It's the only way they know how to fight us without getting stomped.
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    That is the same way I feel about it.




    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1064
    (9/11/02 1:30:29 pm)
    Reply Re: New Poll in Germany...on Adolf
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    This is a good discussion, folks - hope more will join with comments and continue in the civil manner being presented, so far.

    Nationalistic pride - guess that's the burning issue. There's no way to deny the American sense of such feelings. Whether this can be compared to that which prevailed in Nazi era Germany is the question. I have to agree with Mike - the 1930's German was a swaggering overconfident person that looked down their tutonic noses at the rest of the world as inferior. Didn't Goering once say the only thing Americans are good at is refrigerators and razor blades?

    The fall of Germany at the conclusion of WWII wrought havoc on the average German, his family and government. There were many, including the US, present to rub their noses in the mess and let them know they really weren't "supermen" as supposed. We quickly realized their value when the cold war developed and desired their assistance to keep the communists from taking all of the European continent. They became staunch allies at that point. See how quickly our thinking changes!!

    I'm at that point on this issue as I am where I argue about the slavery repatriation push in this country - the sins of my supposed forefathers is not encumbered upon me! What the Nazi party members did until 1945 is not the burden for the present generation. Heck, I think the French are more against us (Americans) than the Germans will ever be.
    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"

    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 94
    (9/11/02 4:42:01 pm)
    Reply Re: New Poll in Germany...on Adolf
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    Ok, I think maybe it's time to insert a little light-hearted humor into this thread. Speaking of the alleged German superior attitude...

    German air traffic control at the Frankfurt Airport is known for being very strict and intolerant of pilots who don't know their way around the taxiways. They expect strict and timely adherence to their commands. So one day an American plane had just landed and rolled off the runway, and the tower clears them to taxi to Gate X. The plane continues to sit on the ramp, the pilots trying to figure out where they're going.

    Frankfurt tower: American Flight 123XX, did you not receive our orders?

    Americans: Tower, we received your order, we just need some help finding our way to the gate.

    Frankfurt tower (mockingly): Have you never been to Frankfurt before?

    Americans: Yes, as a matter of fact, I have. In 1944, in a B-17. I didn't stop....

    Edited by: 1952Sniper at: 9/11/02 5:43:06 pm

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3690
    (9/14/02 12:20:27 am)
    Reply Re: New Poll in Germany...on Adolf
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    That's a good one, 1952...

    Anyway, I apologize if I seem out of line, I do get passionate about this...except I really get incensed at moral relativists who say what the Germans did was no different than what others, or even the US has done, apologists who so quickly see so much GOOD in Germans and Germany and refuse to see the BAD and are so quick to dismiss Adolf Hitler as an anomally.

    He wasn't.

    "The German people came to see the coming war as a racial one-pitting the superior German race against the inferior Slavic one."

    "Meantime, the invading Germans were quickly gaining an international reputation for barbarism: burning towns, executing civilians, raping and mutilating women, (including, some said, nuns,) pillaging, taking hostages, and imposing grievous war taxes."

    "700,000 captured Belgian men were enslaved and forced to work in armaments factories."

    " (German Field Marshal)'Punishment for hostile acts falls, not only on the guilty, but on the innocent as well.' Thus in the city of Dinant the Germans executed 612 men, women, and children. In Tamines they rounded up 400 Belgian men and machine-gunned them to death. They burned the magnificent university library at Louvain, and even opened the gates to the lunatic asylum at Bailleul, causing the deaths of many bewildered inmates who wandered into zones of fire."

    "These acts were, in effect, nothing less than terrorism, designed to inspire fear and obedience in the Belgians."




    These quotes are from a NEW history of WORLD WAR ONE. ("A Storm in Flanders" Winston Grooms, 2002) In other words, well researched, and documented, NOT able to be dismissed as "wartime propaganda."

    Hitler wasn't even a private yet. When some of this was happening, he was just another civilian on his knees in the square in Munich (along with THOUSANDS of fellow Germans) on his KNEES thanking God he was able to be alive and in Germany and be able to go to war at this glorious time! (There's a picture of him doing it in the book.)

    My point is that too many otherwise knowledgeable people still think the unspeakable, incomprehendable, horrible things done in WWII were done only by the Nazis and the SS were NOT done by "Germans."

    IT WAS. Hitler was a symptom, not a disease. Hopefully the FINAL symptom of a terrible Germanic disease, but we cannot be sure. God knows similar strains of the disease still exist in the Former Yugoslave republic, and other places in the world, but it reached it's zenith in the German strain.

    The Germanic people did it ever since the Teutonic knights in the dark ages. Some of what they did as "civilized" Europeans rivaled the ravages of Attila, and the Tatars, the mongols. In fact, why did they get the name of "Huns" in WWI in the first place?

    After the unification of Germany, and after 1870 specifically, they merely REFINED and MODERNIZED their barbarism.




    And to REMOTELY consider that this conduct is "really no different" than what the USA or other nations has done, is ridiculous.

    I know all ABOUT My Lai, the occasional shooting of German POWs by US forces, the Manhattan project, the firebombing, shooting refugees at the bridges near Pusan, the abominable way war against the Plains Indians was conducted, etc...

    But anyone who truly knows history who cannot see the BASIC difference, that those are all NOT in our character, or were done as a last resort, or were even investigated and PROSECUTED by the USA, and that we are SHAMED or else at least regretful that it was unavoidable...compared to the country and/or people that first, enthusiastically, and unapologetically, used Chlorine gas, flamethrowers, unrestricted Submarine Warfare, starvation, slave labor, "ethnic cleansing", nerve gases, ballistic missiles, bombing purely civilian targets, terror weapons, etc etc etc, as planned OFFENSIVE weapons, or to advance their "culture," is either being naive, or else has an agenda.





    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    Tac401
    Administrator
    Posts: 5928
    (9/14/02 10:50:48 pm)
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    Re: New Poll in Germany...on Adolf
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    "My My Adolf" "What'a Bic Swanshtucker you havf!"

    Thought I'd put some jousted humor in here!
    TFF VMBB Email Tac

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (9/15/02 10:17:52 am)
    Reply Re: New Poll in Germany...on Adolf
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    Well, it's certainly arguable as to whether Hitler was "great" or not, but how many world leaders have been immortalized in a hit Broadway musical?

    "Springtime for Hitler, and Germany........" The Producers.

    "Baby? Baby? Der Fuhrer never use this word, Baby!"

    nighthawksh
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    (9/15/02 4:40:44 pm)
    Reply Re: New Poll in Germany...on Adolf
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    Some related information:

    In 1936, an amphitheater was constructed in the hills above the city of Heidelberg. It was built for the purpose of a speech to be made by the Chancellor (Adolph). It was built to seat 5,000 to 8,000 people. They even had to construct a road up to it. Lots of work, lots of Reich’s-marks. Heidelberg, at that time, had a population of around 15,000. Also, it was, and still is, the location of the oldest, continuously operating university in Europe.
    On the big day, Hitler came into town in a big caravan. Up the hill they went, pulled up to the back of the theater, and entered onto the stage. They were flabbergasted! In that vast, expensive, amphitheater, sat less than 300 “volks”! Ol’ Adolph started to speak, but quickly his noted temper took over, and he stopped in mid-sentence, huffed and puffed a bit, stormed out, got in his vehicle, and off they went. It was the first, and last time, Der Fuerher ever visited Heidelberg. Even though the Burgermiester and the city council expected the worse, nothing happened, with the exception that Hitler ordered his staff that no one would ever mention Heidelberg in any way, no matter the subject. The city just ceased to exist to him.

    btw, I spent many very pleasant summer days and evenings setting around that place, drinking good German beer, eating good German sausage, and passing time with lovely German ladies.

    So, I have to confess to liking the general German population. That was 35 years ago, and I still have some friends there.

    Stan H ,, nighthawk

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3695
    (9/15/02 10:47:31 pm)
    Reply Re: New Poll in Germany...on Adolf
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    Don't anyone mistake what I'm saying, I know MANY Americans of German descent who are the most compassionate, patriotic and freedom loving people you could meet. Many Americans of German descent fought tooth and nail AGAINST Germany in WWII, and had no delusions...many hated Adolf personally, but also any Germans that followed him.

    Likewise, person for person I'm sure German people individually are as nice and personable as any other.

    However I am talking about the "group" mentality, call it a national defect, whatever, which glorifies war, discipline, "German Superiority," unswerving loyalty to the leader, xenophobia, as well as an quick inherent acceptance of barbarism and racism and slavery when dealing with any "non-German" in warfare, and facts that speak for themselves, throughout history.

    How can any culture that HAS such a rich heritage, in music, arts, science, etc, have such latent rascism and barbarism ALWAYS lurking just beneath the surface?

    The point I am trying to get people to see is that it is so easy for us to fall into the "Germans Good-Hitler Bad" rationalization that DOES excuse the German people for centuries of barbarism.

    For example, how many people have heard or even said something like..."Everyone knows if Hitler had developed the Atomic Bomb he would have used it against English cities."

    THAT is a cop-out. As tough as it is for us to admit it, the REAL observation should be "Everyone knows that if the GERMANS had developed the atomic bomb they would have used it...." It is more than a minor distinction.

    It is WAY too easy for us to excuse the Germans for the most horrific crimes against humanity ever done in the History of the world, by ascribing them ALL to one man.

    Hitler, even Hitler and all the Nazis, with every SS trooper, could NOT have done a thing without acquiescence of most of the German people. PERIOD.

    The problem is, the Germans did MORE than acquiesce.

    MOST supported Hitler without question UNTIL the war was obviously lost. "Underground" activity in Germany actively fighting Nazi rule was virtually non-existant.

    But as the poll suggests, the worm is turning. Every time they give similar polls, more and more of TODAY'S Germans "accept" Adolf Hitler just a little more.

    That IS troubling, considering history.

    The story of Heidelburg in 1936 is refreshing to hear. But in 1936 Hitler was still solidifying power. One of the things I really DETEST about the Germans is best exemplified by the "Honorable" Prussian officers corps so reveled by AMERICAN military men...when Hitler was weak at the beginning, many didn't support him. When the war was obviously lost after late 1944, many began to waver in their support again...

    BUT in the "heady" days when Hitler was WINNING....
    Every German officer was on the bandwagon...WILLINGLY doing anything he or his lackeys ordered, or wished.

    I would be interested in hearing how many people from Heidelburg backed Hitler in 1938 and 1939, or the percentage of men of military age who refused to fight in the Werhmacht. And I'd be willing to bet by 1942 there were quite a few men from Heidelburg proudly wearing the black uniforms of the Waffen SS.

    As well as willingly "doing their duty" as camp guards.













    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    Edited by: polishshooter at: 9/15/02 11:52:24 pm

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2737
    (9/16/02 8:26:03 am)
    Reply Re: New Poll in Germany...on Adolf
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    You have to remember......the German people turned their backs on democracy back in 1930 when they elected the Nazi Party.

    "On election day September 14, 1930, the Nazis received 6,371,000 votes, over eighteen percent of the total, and were thus entitled to 107 seats in the German Reichstag. It was a stunning victory for Hitler. Overnight, the Nazi party went from the smallest to the second largest party in Germany." .....The History Place

    Nor can there be much doubt what his intentions were. His book "Mein Kampf" was widely read......

    "In his book, Hitler divides humans into categories based on physical appearance, establishing higher and lower orders, or types of humans. At the top, according to Hitler, is the Germanic man with his fair skin, blond hair and blue eyes. Hitler refers to this type of person as an Aryan. He asserts that the Aryan is the supreme form of human, or master race."

    "And so it follows in Hitler's thinking, if there is a supreme form of human, then there must be others less than supreme, the Untermenschen, or racially inferior. Hitler assigns this position to Jews and the Slavic peoples, notably the Czechs, Poles, and Russians."

    "...it [Nazi philosophy] by no means believes in an equality of races, but along with their difference it recognizes their higher or lesser value and feels itself obligated to promote the victory of the better and stronger, and demand the subordination of the inferior and weaker in accordance with the eternal will that dominates this universe." - Hitler states in Mein Kampf." ........The History Place

    He was named Chancellor of Germany in 1933. This was no "Beer Hall Putsch"......he was elected by the German people.


    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 121
    (9/16/02 10:39:39 am)
    Reply Re: New Poll in Germany...on Adolf
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ok, I'll agree that the German population was responsible for putting Adolf Hitler and the NS party in power. However, at the time, they did not know that this would mean WWII and the horrible atrocities that resulted. Nor did they have a popular vote to kill all Jews. However, the majority of Germans did look the other way while Jews were being arrested and their property confiscated. This is unexcusable, but there were exceptions (like Oskar Schindler) who tried to find the moral high ground.

    It's one thing to read history books and learn the "facts" of what happened. But there are also lots of people still alive who lived through those times in Germany who tell a different story. I know several of them. They were just as frightened of the Nazis as everyone else. So I wouldn't go as far as to classify ALL Germans as being evil or anything.

    I think everyone agrees that the Germans were swept by a national "epidemic". You have to keep in mind that they were horribly poor and the nation was doing very badly after WWI. The Nazi party offered a program to stimulate the nation. In the politics of the time, Hitler had the best plan for the starving, desperate Germans. Again, I don't think anyone would have voted for him had they known what he would eventually do to Germany.

    One more comment - the reference was made to American atrocities. What we did to the Native Americans and African slaves was, in my mind, no different than what Hitler did to the Jews and other prisoners. We murdered the Indians for no other reason than the fact that they were Indians. We wanted their land, they fought us for it, and so we slaughtered them. Just as Hitler declared that Germany needed "breathing room", we decided that the whole of North America belonged to us. We needed workers to tend our fields and do back-breaking labor, so we "bought" slaves from African slave traders. Then we worked them to death. Americans raped slave girls, beat their families, starved them, and all kinds of nasty stuff. Yet we continue to pound our chests and say that we're the kindest nation in the world. What's the real difference? Our population supported this type of thing at the time. We have outgrown that type of behavior. And I think Germany has too. I, for one, don't care to be personally blamed for what America did to Indians and Africans. So I wouldn't want to blame present day Germans for what Hitler did.

    I just don't think it's fair to point the finger at Germany and declare that they are evil for all eternity just because they did something wrong over 50 years ago. That would be hypocritical, to say the least. Let's just say that history is history, and we must all do our best to not let history repeat itself, either here or in Germany. If indeed there is a rising surge of anti-Semitic sentiment in Germany, then the world needs to remind them that they now live in a larger society and we won't let it happen. The trick is to jump on the problem before it gets out of hand.

    Sie lesen deine Gedanken, und bohren in dein Gehirn. Feind hört mit....

    jonkx
    Member
    Posts: 33
    (10/1/02 1:12:10 am)
    Reply Re: New Poll in Germany...on Adolf
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I often wish that Germany hadn't overextended itself in North Africa, Italy, Yugoslavia, Norway, and france, but had rather, after Poland, smashed the USSR with everything it had. I also wish that no lend lease had ever gone to that Red sonofabitch Stalin, and that the Germans had roared up Red Square and toppled the Bolshiviks for good. Suddenly no Korea, no Vietnam, no Castro, no Cold War. This wish however is contingent on:

    In defeating the Russians, Germany loses so many troops that either A: The people overthrow Hitler or B: The Western Allies sense the time is right to make a move and kick him out.

    In short, it is too bad that the two ultimate evils didn't bleed each other white. No, instead, after doing tremendous damage to Russia, Germany was crushed.

    Regarding German polls- I am reminded of the McCarthy era. This is America and a democracy, as is Germany, albeit one with socialist leanings. One has to accept that the people might choose a Communist, or a Nazi, and not stand in the way like McCarty. We fought WW2 so people COULD choose. I hope to God that no one like Hitler ever gets "elected" again, but if he were legitimately, I don't know what could be done. Yes I am concerned, I hope they remember history and learn.

    Regarding Hitler as a statesman- He was a great orator, yes, and a great one for getting people to follow blindly. But a statesman keeps in mind what is best for his people and nation, which Hitler did not. Killing the Jews denied Germany much talent and a large part of the economy, moral reprehension aside. Attacking all of his neighbors condemned the nation to doom. So he was a poor statesman.

    nighthawksh
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 196
    (10/4/02 11:48:38 am)
    Reply Re: New Poll in Germany...on Adolf
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    If, as jonkx says, Germany had defeated the Soviet Union, it would have been necessary for the rest of the Allies to attempt to make peace with the Nazis. With the oil and slave labor Hitler would have gained from the defeat of Russia, we would not have been able to defeat him in war. We would have had to settle for a stalemate. And, I don't think Hitler would have been satisfied with that for very long. With his full forces concentrated on the western front, it would have been almost impossible to stop him. We had to make a pact with Stalin to defeat the Nazis.
    IMO, it was after the war that we should have acted differently towards the Soviets. Perhaps a bit more agressive?


    Stan H ,, nighthawk

    My wife says I never listen to her,,,or something like that

    obelix2
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 365
    (10/4/02 7:24:12 pm)
    Reply I must take issue
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    with a general condemnation of German culture (Kultur, if you will).

    I am familiar with German harshness in the Great War, though it pales against German, Japanese and Soviet atrocities in the Second, and tends to be exaggerated by the superior force of Anglo-French propaganda. I also know about the merciless Prussian destruction of Napoleon's last army and about the ruthless German reaction to a native uprising in Sudwest Afrika (Namibia) in 1904.

    Are these things really, though, a consequence of German character or simply of circumstance? Do German colonial evils compare -- after all, they came along late -- with those of other European powers -- French, British, Italians -- or, in the Congo, especially Belgians? Would the British or the French have operated differently if the course of the war had made them occupy Belgium? Their colonial history suggests otherwise.

    By current standards, German treatment of the subject population in France in 1870-71 -- a war clearly provoked by the French -- seems remarkably civilized. Surely the French had less to complain about than the American Southerners six years before.

    What I am suggesting is that the peculiar barbarity of Hitler's Germany was an historical anomaly, brought about by circumstances that have less to do with German character than with a reaction to the needless humiliation of Versailles.

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3746
    (1/10/03 11:53:05 pm)
    Reply Re: I must take issue
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Obelix, yes, Versailles led to Hitler and WWII...no question there...

    But I see NO correllation between Versailles and the gas chambers, sorry.

    And the ghettos, transports, camps, and ovens simply do NOT exist without active participation of the populace.

    MAYBE they are the product of Hitler's mind, granted...


    But they were the product of GERMAN hands as well.

    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3494
    (1/11/03 10:50:48 am)
    Reply Re: I must take issue
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Vell, he built the autobahns und made the trains run on time.

    I vass not political. I vass not a member of the Party. I am an Argentine citizen!

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3748
    (1/11/03 5:25:25 pm)
    Reply Re: I must take issue
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Yeah X, a few weeks ago I read the oldie but goodie "Stuka Pilot" and he sounded like the TYPICAL Nazi officer...even if he WASN'T a party member...especially at the end of the war.

    Arrogant, ignorant and unrepentant.

    Germany was wronged, Germany was fighting for the free world, the West just caused the end of the world by not allowing Germany to win, all those a** kissing trips to Hitlers bunker getting all those medals right up to the end of the war LONG after it was obvious the war was lost, blaming the people, the west, and ending it with the famous "A man is lost only if he admits he is lost..."

    And the bastard moved to Argentina too....AFTER he is treated like royalty by the USAAF and the RAF...


    I knew I was in for a treat when I read the forward by his father...another unrepentant Nazi lemming.








    Rather than treating him like he was something special, they SHOULD have given him a set of smelly ripped POW coveralls and made him work for a few years burying the dead in the camps...by HAND.

    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2003
  2. Bernie109

    Bernie109 Former Guest

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    If you were living in a country where Inflation was at 1500%, Unemployment at 65%, and an economy in ruins, you too would have considered Hitler a Godsend. Even today, many Russians are looking up to Stalin again.
    Where I used to work, there were a lot of Armenians. These Armenians all claim that if the Comunists ever came back to power, they would go back.
    As one said "We had it good under Comunism! We pretended to work and the State prentended to pay us and everybody was happy!"
  3. Green

    Green New Member

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    I am German and proud of it. As far as the "hocaust", It is just my opinion but, I have sreious doubts about it.
  4. Then I would suggest you talk seriously to any of the American soldiers who liberated some of those camps in Germany, Green. Men who were actually there. I have; my uncle was one of them. Bodies by the thousands--men, women, and children--stacked in piles 20 feet high cannot be faked, nor the stench that emminated from the camps that would gag a man from a mile away. Ask any of these soldiers about the ones they found still alive; ask them to describe the looks of horror and despiration on the faces of the victims.
  5. Green

    Green New Member

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    I guess you have a bit of a point there pistol. But just what did they see? HOW did it happen? You sound more like some propaganda add for the "holocaust". Nothing more than the average PC average joe. As I stated,it is of MY opinion. Where is the proof? And what do you call proof?
  6. No one is questioning your right to hold an opinion, Green, no matter how absurd that opinion may be. As for proof, I would say there are 11 million items of it scattered across the soil of Germany and Poland, not to mention the clear documentation for the planning and execution of the "Final Solution" salvaged from the rubble of a shattered Nazi empire after the war. Qualifications for my own view? Well, I teach history at the college level and hold the credentials that qualify me to do so in the form of two Master's degrees. Look, for example, at the transcripts of testamony given by hundreds of survivors at the Nuremburg Tribunals after the war as well. Are we to discount the eyewitness testamony all of those men and women? Could they all be lying? What about the SS guards who were captured and sang like canaries to save their own butts (the ones American soldiers who witnessed the camps didn't shoot out of hand)? Should we disbelieve them as well? I think not. What about the cremitoria that the Nazis could not destroy in time and the piles of bodies photographed when the camps were liberated? Some of the cremitoria are still there, along with the Auschwitz camp itself. Try visiting there sometime, Green. I have. The ghosts of the dead still haunt that place. No, I am neither Jewish nor a "propaganda ad for the Holocaust." I'm just a man who believes we must NEVER forget what happened in those camps.
  7. Green

    Green New Member

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    That is one heck of a text book response pistol. 11 mil. what? What clear documentation do you allude to? Nurenburg? What a farce, sham and travesty of "justice". Confessions under torture. Real believable. We see what is taught in the"institutes of higher learning" these days. Dumbing down is more like it. Crematoriums. How long does it take to burn one body? Let alone the so-called 6 mil? And they(so called death camps) were all in Russian terr. Why in the world would the Germans give the inmates of any camp money? Elaborate in the printing etc. Why,if it so well documented is it illegal in Germany and some other nations to deny much less even discuss the 'holocaust'? It is just a $$$$making scam. The jewish population had one of the least amount of losses in WW2.
  8. inplanotx

    inplanotx New Member

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    Quote by Green
    You see Green, the above noted text by you shows us exacly why you know NOTHING about what you speak, yet you keep driveling it all over the forum. The death camps were NOT in Russia, they were in Poland and other countries.
    Maybe PS can teach you a little history. Maybe you should go visit Auschwitz-Birkenau or Dachau and look at the horror first hand. I now relegate your drivel, along with the prime minister of Iran, to the ignore mode. Since you both think alike, you will probably get along together. Maybe you would be happier living in Iran where some still think like you.

    Until the day they died, my Aunt Dot and Uncle Dolph still had the number tattoo on their arm from Auschwitz.
  9. Marlin T

    Marlin T Active Member

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    This guy Green is a disgrace to the human kind.



    Inplanotx would you seriously consider my request.
  10. Green

    Green New Member

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    First, Read! I stated they were in Russian (communist) "held territory."Driveling? You do one heck of a good job.To visit these so-calle death camps means nothing. They have been made to appear as "gas chambers etc. by Russia. I do believe you should do a little checking up, and not the PC nonsense that that has been driven into your 'minds' by so-called academians.(Gen Doolittle's former college is a prime example!)As far as your relatives, I don't think anyone should be stuck in some camp(unless they declare war on their host Nation) Remember how the Japs were treated here in the U.S.A.? NO disrespect intended,but those tattoo #'s are on several mil. still walking. As I stated,IF, all of this PC stuff about the 'holocaust' is so true,why make it illegal to deny,discuss,or debate it in some countries? What is there to hide?? And if it WERE all true... with all the millions of people murded by stalin etc. WHAT? makes this any more special? Really. Is a 'jew' better than the rest? If so,please tell me how. Why should Countries keep paying big $$$$'s? Every time you turn around,well they owe us money,and they do too. And them........ ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111
  11. Right on Inplano, and well said, though I think "drivel" is perhaps too mild a word for what Green is peddling. Assinine, anti-semitic, Nazi krasser Unzin--to use the German term--is far more apt. I too have had opportunity to talk with death camp surviviors--several of them--men and women whose number tatoos were still on their bodies and the hateful degredation of the camps still and forever marking their souls. What happened in Germany during those years must NEVER be forgotten, nor indeed, forgiven. It is, and shall always be, the pinnacle of human hate, cruelty, and depravity.

    When the camps in the American sector were liberated at the end of the war, General Dwight Eisenhower said that someday there would be those who would try to deny that the Holocaust ever happened. In an effort to prevent this, he forced the German civilians of the towns in proximity to the camps to march though them, to see the unburied dead, to smell the awful stench of burned and decaying flesh, and then, to help bury those innocent and helpless souls. It is, in my opinion, one of the wisest decisions this fine soldier and president ever made.

    A most appropriate response, Inplano. I shall join you in that response immediately. Expressing an opinion is one thing, peddling hate is quite another. Candidly, I think this matter should be reported to, and responded to, by the appropriate TFF administation personnel. It has no place on our fourm.
  12. Green

    Green New Member

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    " Candidly, I think this matter should be reported to, and responded to, by the appropriate TFF administation personnel. It has no place on our fourm."

    By all means, do so pistol! The "drivel" you two spew forth is one reason the truth is so hard to hear. Stiffle the opposition.(as I stated,it is illeagal in some counties and you think the same should apply here) No first Amend. rights if you are not inagreement. Your kind of "drivel" is what is so prevelent in these liberal cesspools called colleges. You still have not given an educated response to any of my questiions. That is if name calling etc. is your way. The Adm.'s should look at YOUR insolence.Also,ignoring any debate or discussion and to say I should be ignored proves YOUR point.You belong on a world level. Well done!!
  13. inplanotx

    inplanotx New Member

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    Ponder this Green and lets see some of your proof that the Holocoast never happened. If this isn't enough, there are another 62,299,999 hits on google I will go pursue.

    One other thing I would like to point out. PS and others are concerned over the drivel being spewed forth here. However, unbeknownst to them, you have been under careful supervision since you arrived. We have seen many like you come and go, however, we do not ban people due to their beliefs. We hope instead to help correct your errant ways with the truth instead. So far we have seen none of your proof, only the drivel portion.

  14. inplanotx

    inplanotx New Member

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    Hey Mr. Green, how about a hot one from today's news. Note please that they are talking about 11 Nation signatories. I guess we're still all wrong huh? Well, I still have 62,299,998 more for ya. Still have not seen proff of your drivel!

  15. Bernie109

    Bernie109 Former Guest

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    What people don't realize is that these camps started out as the cleanest, most well run, and best organised prisons the world ahs ever seen. It was later when the "Final solution" was implimented that they became "Death camps" (Gitmo anybody?) As far as starving prisonors, the Germans couldn't even feed thier own people much less thier prisonors. And before we get too self rightious, does anybody remember ther "Morgenthahl plan?" FDR signed off on this plan which was to strip Germany of all industry. Only subsistance farming would be allowed and without any machinery. Ther germans were to be allowed to starve down to the level that this primitive agriculture would sustain and the "Death Camps" were to be kept running to "Process" the dead Germans and German resistance fighters. The only reason this plan was not implimented was because FDR Died. Truman not only rejected the plan but had to fire Henry Morgenthahl in order to prevent him from presenting it at Potsdam. So, between Dresdyn, Calonge, and other cities whae we deliberately fire bombed civilians and the Morgenthahl plan, we are not that much better. (Gitmo anybody?)
  16. Bernie109

    Bernie109 Former Guest

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    The voyage of the St. Louis also details a pattern that would be repeated throughout the war. The St. Louis was to land Jews fleeingHitler in Cuba. Cuba refused. When he ship tried to force its way towards Florida, FDR personally ordered that if the ship enetered US waters, it was to be sunk and the survivores were to be shot in the water. Never once, was "Save the Jews!" a battle cry in WW2. In fact, FDR is quoted as saying "This is not a war for the Jews!" US military commanders could not fugure out why they were ordered to bypass these "Death Camps" when they could have easily liberated them much sooner than they did. One cabinet member claims that FDR was outraged that so many Jews survived after "Giving Hitler plenty of time to finish the job." There is more at play here than we are being shown.
  17. inplanotx

    inplanotx New Member

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    Ah yes folks, we NOW have Bernie109 to the rescue with drivel non-pertinent to the subject at hand. Either take a stand to the Holocaust/No Holocaust or sit back down and listen. Not really worried about your deflection try Bernie109, by the way, nice try.

    What's even more interesting is the Green was logged in all morning and until about 45 minutes ago. Then you show up and he's gone. Going to have to look into that real good.
  18. Green

    Green New Member

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    I don't know how you came up with this drvel also,I was on all morning till 45 min. ago?? Jeeeezzz well,to be polite,taint so..
  19. Green

    Green New Member

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    For starters,#1-again,why did the inmates get paid?
    2-How did those itty bitty ovens burn all those bodys?
    3-What was the world jewish population in 1935 and 1955 according to the 'world jewish almanac?'
    4 -Do you really believe the Nurenburg trial "confessions?
    5- Even if it were true....what makes the jewish so-called holocaust greater or more important than the others? The others are to be forgotten?
  20. inplanotx

    inplanotx New Member

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    Since you show no proof, lets start like this:

    #1 - Where are there documents showing they got paid and who paid them?

    #2 - Not all bodies were cremated, most were buried in mass graves, this is documented with Nazi documentary films and files.

    #3 - You tell us!

    #4 - I believe the Nazi documents they left behind and the films they made proving it.

    #5 - To which are you referring? Armenians, Serbian....WHICH ONE?????

    Although you do not hear much about the Armenian/Turk slaughter, it is still there and no one denies it happened. Right now in The Hague, they are having war crime trials on many of the Serbs that committed the slaughter on the Croats. Care to deny this happened? However, the Holocaust was not just concerning the Jewish people, the Nazi's also slaughtered politial poles, teachers, you name it. They also killed the Gypsies. It was not all Jews and no one has ever said it was. However, the majority were Jews. The Nazi's slaughtered every race or politic it thought was beneath them.

    How about a document from Himmler to Hitler, notice the line about "Jews Exterminated";

    Here is the translation for ya!

    Subject: Report to the Führer about fight against gangs
    Report No. 51
    Southern Russia, Ukraine, Bialystok
    Successes in fight against gangs from 1st October until 1st December 1942

    1.) Bandits:
    a) Casualties in fights (x)
    August September October November total
    227 381 427 302 1337
    b) Prisoners executed immediately
    125 282 87 243 737
    c) Prisoners executed after thorough interrogation
    2100 1400 1596 2731 7828
    2.) Bandit accomplices and suspects
    a) arrested
    1342 3078 8337 3795 16553
    b) executed
    1198 3020 6333 3706 14257
    c) Jews executed
    31246 165282 95735 70948 363211

    3.) Turncoats thanks to German propaganda
    21 14 42 63 140

    (x) The number of casualties are to be considered much higher,
    because the Russians carry off their fallen or bury them immediately.

    Source: Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. XIII, p. 269-272. See also: Hitler and the Final Solution, G. Fleming, University of California Press, Berkeley, 1984, pp.92-93.

    This document is presented as evidence of the complicity and approval of Adolf Hitler, regarding the murders that took place during the Holocaust.

    Attached Files:

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