No Serial Number

Discussion in 'The 1911 Forum' started by lonewolfmp63, Dec 18, 2009.

  1. BETH

    BETH Well-Known Member

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    what if the gun was used to murder someone????????
  2. jondar

    jondar New Member

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    Maybe that's why there are no markings on it. that increases the value.
  3. John S Bryant

    John S Bryant New Member

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    to my knowledge ALL military 1911 and 1911A1 were assigned serial numbers. check a WW1 1911 and you will find a serial number and thats pre-1924
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2010
  4. williamd

    williamd New Member

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    There is a barely visible Y where it used to say US Government Property in front of slide stop. Frame has been POLISHED a LOT. Appears to be an assemblers # on the trigger guard. My guess ... Colt frame and an arsenal overhaul with stampings removed for some reason ... corrision?? Remington Rand built none in the time period of the frame, in fact RR did not exist as a firearms manufacturere. Should be markings on top of frame (slide removed).
    Last edited: May 13, 2010
  5. RJay

    RJay Active Member

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    :) Old post but still alive. That gun was never a WWII issue, All 1911's had serial numbers. No military depot would polish off the all the markings, if so , it went into the scrap. It is a mix-master. Perhaps someone was scared of the Prop. Of the US Government And had it removed so no one would know. I've seen more than one other wise nice 1911 ruined that way. Who knows? It is not a lunch box gun. Odds are very high this gun was never carried in WWII, that fact will never be known for certain, the only thing for sure it was never issued for WWII use with a WWI frame and it was never an issue firearm in WWII ( or anytime ). The OP can do what ever he likes with the gun, Me, I would be scared to death of it and as I stated before, the frame would disappear.:eek:
  6. VegasTech702

    VegasTech702 New Member

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    That's such a liberal way of looking at it. What if it had? Does that make the gun evil? Did the gun murder someone? Grow up.
  7. Alpo

    Alpo Well-Known Member

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    There's no need to be rude.
  8. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    First, federal law did not require serial numbers on ANY firearm made or sold in the U.S. prior to the Gun Control Act of 1968. But, due to handgun registration laws in several states, handgun makers generally put on serial numbers; rifle and shotgun makers often did not, except on their more expensive models.

    Not all U.S. military arms had serial numbers (Civil War rifle muskets and the Model 1870 did not) but ones of that era did.

    U.S. federal law makes it a felony to remove or obliterate a serial number or to POSSESS a gun from which the number has been removed.

    Now that frame is so bad to begin with and so ground down and buffed to heck even before the gunsmith touched it, that it is really of no value. It does NOT match the slide and gun as is (aside from the number issue) has no collector value.

    The only thing you can do legally is to turn the stripped frame in, saying you have come to understand that it is illegal. ATF deals with that all the time, and unless there is evidence that you removed the number to conceal a crime, you will not be in any trouble.

    Then go buy an Essex or other frame that already has a serial number and reassemble the gun. It will be no less a mongrel than it is now, and it will be legal.

    NOTE: Yes, I know about advice to just find a deep lake or bury the frame. That might be practical, but would technically be another felony, that of concealment of a felony, so I cannot advise that path. That frame is in the same category legally as kilo of heroin, but not nearly as valuable and not worth going to jail for.

    Jim
  9. williamd

    williamd New Member

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    :D Welll .... how would S/N or lack thereof be of any consequence??? Liberal headline: "Victim was killed with a handgun w/o a s/n and, therefore, not expected to survive!" Since it is private hands and has been for some time I doubt the police have any interest. Oh, other than confiscation.

    If you had used the word 'kill' vice 'murder' I would respond that 1000's have killed someone ... or, rather, have been used by the shooter to do so.

    I have a few 1911's and 1911A1's ... ALL have s/n's as req'd by Gov't contract and they date to 1914. S/n ranges were given to different manufacturers. Does not mean you can't build up a gun w/o s/n - legal or illegal. I have several older fireaarms that have no s/n. Check Clawson's 1911 book and/or www.coolgunsite.com
    Last edited: May 13, 2010
  10. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    I suggest reading what I wrote. Prior to 1968, guns made for the civilian market were not required by federal law to have serial numbers. Guns made before that without numbers continue to be legal and may be bought and sold (the dealer simply records the gun as "pre-68, no SN"). Guns made for the military had serial numbers as required in the contract.

    BUT if a gun had a serial number (and all U.S. M1911/A1 pistols did), removal of the number or possession of a pistol from which the number has been removed (regardless of why, when or by whom it was removed) is a felony.

    As of 1968, no, you can't build a gun without a serial number. If you build a frame from scratch or use one of the partially finished frames, you are required to put on a serial number; if you build it for resale, you must have a manufacturer's license. Note that if you build a gun for your own use, without having a manufacturer's license, you MUST do ALL the work yourself. You cannot have someone else do it unless that someone has a manufacturers' license, since he is making it for resale (to you).

    Jim
  11. old semperfi

    old semperfi New Member

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    i live in southern indiana,old country boy at hear
    just so you know,i had a 1911 45acp given to me because of the same reason,i did call atf and after i told them how old it was i was told it was legal.it seems that at one time side arms that were issued to an officer upon retirement or mustering out they were given the oppertunity to purchase the firearm.if they purchased it the serial number on that gun was removed and the number given to another same firearm.it seems that it was not necessary to delete and then add to inventory.i still replaced my frame with an essex satin nickel and after some other mods it will now outshoot my goldcup.please chk with atf and dont take my or anybodys word. old semperfi
  12. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    That is nonsense, and the ATF agent was full of s***. The government has NEVER done such a thing. Never ever, take the word of an ATF or IRS agent on anything. They are so often ignorant of even the simplest aspect of the laws they enforce that it is a disgrace.

    If you have a technical question, write (no email, no phone call) to BATFE HQ iin Washington and ask the question. The response is binding on all ATF agents, something the word of one agent is not.

    Jim
  13. williamd

    williamd New Member

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    Jim K ... right!

    old simperfi, my Uncle (Army) was 'given' his 1911. I have seen the papers. It is as issued except for the use. All marking including the s/n. His son who is pushing 80, has it now. I will ask if he still has the paperwork and will fax me a copy.

    Not to kick a dead horse ... The pistol shown is NOT a Remington Rand. RR did not exist when the 1911 was made. R-UMC did but that was a different company. What is shown is an arsenal overhaul pistol with markings polished off .. for some dumb-ass reason. The pics below are my 1916 'RR' .... which is really a Colt frame that has been through an arsenal overhaul (or two). The RR slide was a common change, as was a HS (high Standar) bbl and Keyes fiber grips. You can see RIA (Rock Island Arsenal) above the trigger guard right side. The original Colt inspector marks are visible but will not show in a pic. See www.coolgunsite.com for more.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 15, 2010
  14. Teejay9

    Teejay9 New Member

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    Better not be in possession of that without a S/N. You'll be committing a felony. As it is now, it's not worth anything because you can't sell or trade it. Take the good stuff off the frame like grips, springs, etc. and either buy a frame through a licensed dealer, or a lower end new 1911 and turn that frame in to the cops. Why take chances on that gun? It's not collectible and not worth getting caught with and going to Federal prison for. Do yourself a favor. Too much hassle keeping it. TJ
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