Obama bin Laden said we turn to "religion" and "guns"...he was right

Discussion in 'The Constitutional & RKBA Forum' started by Doug.38PR, Jan 12, 2009.

  1. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Well-Known Member

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    Religion is between a man and his God, yes, but if it doesn't also affect his relationships with all other men, then it's hardly worth mentioning. Some people are perfectly comfortable having "church life" on Sunday morning and normal life the other 166 hours each week. That doesn't make any sense to me.

    I believe in liberty, freedom, etc., but those will never be the focus of my life. Those are your defining principles, so those are are the principles under which you want everyone to unite. My defining principles are different.

    Look at it this way: If Christianity is true, and if most of the people on this earth are headed to an eternity of suffering and separation from God, would it make any sense for me to make liberty for a few short years on this earth the defining principle of my life? I'm sure you see that would be ridiculous for me to do.

    I'm terribly sorry that you have been discriminated against by people claiming to represent Christ. Seeing how Christ treated everyone the same (women, Samaritans, Roman soldiers), I don't think they were very good representatives. In fact, the only people Christ seemed to treat differently were those who were pretentious based on their religion (the Pharisees, Saducees, and various scribes). This fact ought to be comforting to you and sobering for me.

    I've certainly enjoyed getting to chat with you here on TFF, and I'm very glad to have another young member. (I just finished my B.A. last May, so I know we're at least pretty close in age.) I hope I haven't thrown too much out there all at once, though I'm confident you can handle this and a whole lot more.

    If you're ever in my neck of the woods, let me know, because it would be great to go shooting with you sometime. Actually, that goes to everyone on here. :)
  2. RunningOnMT

    RunningOnMT New Member

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    "DontCryMrJefferson;383019]I slowly gained my beliefs and thoughts on religion from the time I was ~7 to now. I had these beliefs before I went to school but even before I went I also had the belief that questions and skepticism are healthy.

    The reason I have an axe to grind with Christianity is because of the things I have lost and things that have been done to me because I don't believe the same as the majority in my state, county, city and country for that matter. However, I can grind my axe all day long as long as everyone else is allowed to do the same."


    I hope my comments to you didn't seem "preachy". I am the last person that should be preaching to anyone. I too am sorry for any unfair treatment you have received by Christians on account of your beliefs. However there is unfair and there is "unfair". Certainly no one should ever deprive you of your rights because of your personal beliefs. However it is only natural that if you express your thoughts on religion around believers, that they will feel somewhat alienated from you. Ones personal beliefs about their God can cause one to feel set apart from non-believers. Let me try to give you a couple scenarios that might help explain what I am saying.

    In my first example imagine that I am a Christian teacher. I give the class of which you are a member, an assignment to write a theme expressing your thoughts on a particular subject. Suppose in your paper you make arguments based on your non belief and because of that regardless of how well presented you receive a failing grade. That would be clearly wrong and you would have every right to "an ax to grind".

    Scenario number two. You are a young man who wants to date my young daughter. My daughter invites you to our home. During the course of conversation some mention of a church function is made and you offer your views on Christianity. Now imagine the next time you call, my daughter informs you that she is not permited to date you because her parents objected to your beliefs (or non beliefs). You have no lawful or morally valid claim of discrimination. People DO have a right to discriminate in some things. Everyone has a right to their opinions but there may be a price to pay for expressing them, and that isn't necessarily an unfair thing.

    I don't get all "in a fuss" when someone mentions that they believe Jesus Christ is our savior/messiah and that he was/is the son of God. I get "bothered" when people try to use that as a 'uniter' between people that are supposed to have different religious beliefs anyway. Our unity should come from the common belief in the principles of freedom, liberty, civil & individual freedoms and democracy (which, even though that technically doesn't have anything to do with the other four it seems to be the best way to ensure their existence). [/QUOTE]
    Do the words "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights...." sound familiar? Think about it. "We" (the founders) hold these truths to be "self evident" (assume) that all men are endowed by their "Creator" (God) with certain inalienable rights... Is this not a statement of unity? So are you "bothered" by our founding fathers, their beliefs, their cause, their own writings? Certainly we are all united by our belief in liberty and freedom but to many of us the author of that liberty is even more important....a stronger uniter. Now you want to criticize these men for not separating the "rights" from the giver of these rights in the public arena? Certainly you have the freedom to believe as you deem appropriate and true, but you have that freedom because Almighty God has given you free will. That was the founders belief anyway, and that is the view of the majority of Americans. Do you not see why many of us see THAT as what unites us?
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2009
  3. DontCryMrJefferson

    DontCryMrJefferson New Member

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    I think it is obvious that they said "our Creator" instead of God (like they do elsewhere) so as to include everyone. A creator can be anything that creates.

    And of course I see why BUT you leave some out when you unite under a cause that people have different views on but they are denied the unity because they have a different religion. Should not all people be free and have an opportunity to unite with those who don't believe as they do on the matters of religion but agree on those of liberty?

    I see what you are saying but I'm still not convinced that it is true liberty when you must be a theist in order to be united with others that wish to be free. Although it is written in the Declaration of Independence I think you would be hard pressed to find something that indicates that any of the authors (mainly Adams, Franklin & Jefferson) thought that people of other religions or even those with no religion should be excluded from liberty or even from the ability or opportunity to unite with theists who also want liberty.

    I cite the hundreds of Christian denominations (many of which are at odds with eachother) as evidence of the disagreement and general divisiveness inherent in many religions. Of course this does not mean those that practice these religions are divisive or bad natured but it does show how people act when they gather in large groups and are 100% sure they are right and everyone else is wrong. This, of course, does not only happen with religion but, nevertheless, it happens.

    I'm sorry, I still don't think this is morally right. I realize it is a Christian moral, but not mine. For example, I would allow my daughter to date someone whether they were Christian, Muslim, Russian, French, Jew, Black, Asian etc... What really would matter to me is (yes, I'm using this phrase but it just fits!) the content of their character. You cannot know this based on religion, obviously. It may be "fair" (even though that is an incredibly subjective term) but it wouldn't make it right or just.

    I suppose what I should really ask is:

    If civil war broke out tomorrow and you decided to fight (but let's not say which side ;) ) would you be willing to fight alongside me if it were semi-convenient or would you send me packing?

    EDIT

    Am I allowed to say some good things about religion ;) ? Many churches help homeless people and they even give out free cheese-dip at my school sometimes. This is great but it's not unconditional like it's supposed to be (or like Jesus would've said it should be). This, of course, would happen with or without religion but that's not the point. It's still nice of them. Or is it? What if a Nazi group gave out free hot dogs but you had to say you were a Nazi or listen to propaganda to receive the hot-dog? What that still be right? What if it was just a neutral political group (not national socialist)? Ah, so many questions, so little time.
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2009
  4. Hells Toy Master

    Hells Toy Master New Member

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    Sorry to butt in on your argument, but I think a 3rd party should be involved..

    to give you my background... I belive in god and in christian values... I was raised a mormon... but I do not adhear to their teachings anylonger for I ran into problems with them.

    Anyways.

    If you go back sir, you will find that they were refering to God in the judao -christian sence. But because of all the diffent ways they said it, it was simpler to put in "our creator".

    While I dont agree with everything this guy says, http://www.michaelmedved.com/site has reserched all of this and makes a strong case many times a year on his radio show.

    One thing you will find sir is that Christanity gave birth to liberty and freedom... not the other way around... so you see they are linked and freedom means nothing without morals... as our Libs are showing us... and Morality comes from religon.

    So? People disagree... and on a topic most people place above everything else you will find people acting out with far more energy then they would on lesser issues.

    Sorry MrJefferson, your wrong... The parents know their daughter better than anyone else and if she holds the same values as her parents then they will know that she May not be happy with you. At the same time religon helps parents of daugters know if the guy will stick around.... It dose not mean he wont leave, but a religous person is a moral person, and thus he most likly wont Knock her up before they get married.

    ( I wont go into the fact that if she lives under their roof the parents should have the right to instruct her as they see fit as long as they are not harming her. )

    Religion is not only a belif system, but it is also a comunity... if somone says they fallow the same religion then you already know their values, and morals.. And futher you know who? to go to to ask about that person to find out more about them...

    Your always welcome here MrJefferson. I welcome anyone at my side that can see right and wrong and is willing to agree to disagree on religious issues :p
  5. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

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    There are a lot of denominations.
    And I have never found ONE in which everyone is saved.
    I have also never found ONE in which NO one is saved.
    I always felt they were allowed by God so his people could feel comfortable in their worship; some folks need great cathedral sounds and solemnaty, while others need clapping, shouts, and "Amen!"s from the congregation.

    But I have only one question, DCMJ -
    You said of our founders:
    "I think it is obvious that they said "our Creator" instead of God (like they do elsewhere) so as to include everyone. A creator can be anything that creates."

    - - - all men are created equal, and are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights - - -

    Other than God, who has the ability to create human beings equal and endow them rights?
  6. Hells Toy Master

    Hells Toy Master New Member

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    Well said Mr. Terry.
  7. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

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    Thank you, sir.

    I hear the conjecture quite often that our founders did not intend this to be a nation under God, and have yet to hear any basis for that. While they certainly did not advocate discrimination against people who did not believe in God, and they absolutely did not want the government to promote or work against any specific religion, neither did they intend for God to have no part in our nation, nor to expunge him from any public mention as is being advocated today.

    We turn to religion and guns.
    Absolutely!
    We turn to God as the most powerful force that has ever or ever will exist, and he tells us to turn to him and trust him.
    We turn to Guns because Jesus Christ told us we would be better off naked than unarmed.
    The saying that God created men and Sam Colt made them equal is not quite correct, because God already made us all equal.
    Sam Colt just gave us the means to make sure everyone understands that.
  8. RunningOnMT

    RunningOnMT New Member

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    +1 What Terry said.
  9. DontCryMrJefferson

    DontCryMrJefferson New Member

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    Okay guys, I get the impression that you don't want to argue about this so I'll stop. I'm younger, and grew up in a "Christian" household where I was taught about all that stuff yet still allowed to decide on my own what I believe without fear. Boy did I have another thing coming when I entered the real world.

    Regardless, my entire point here is:

    I try not to judge anyone based on anything, including but not limited to religion, other than the way they act and the principles and morals they act on.

    I disagree to the highest degree that morals MUST come from religion (although I will admit that there are some that would have no morals without religion; I actually find that to be a bad thing). If we need religion to have morals then how moral are we really? Morals should be something we have regardless of what religion tells us. Therefore, I base my morals on what I feel is right and little else. If religion is a prerequisite for morals then I should be a murderous degenerate and, for example, an old Christian friend of mine should be the model of morality. But neither of these things are true, IMO.

    So, regardless of what people say I will continue to treat everyone as equals.

    One thing I always ask theists (and I get all kinds of different answers) is:

    If you didn't have religion, would you rape, steal and kill all the time? If no, then why? If yes... then well...

    That's it. I am not going to allow this to divide us any longer. I still believe that is not right.

    (by the way, the girl should be able to make her own decisions and learn from her own mistakes unless it is life and death)

    EDIT

    I think the big difference here is I am open to, and believe there is a small chance, that there is a god. I am able to be convinced with sufficient evidence and arguments. I don't believe that is true with ya'll.
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2009
  10. Teejay9

    Teejay9 New Member

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    Through the centuries there has never been a society or culture that was atheist. They all had a god or gods. They all had their creation stories and all believed in some form of higher power. I think the point trying to be made is that, in this country at least, we have the free will to worship (or not worship) a creator of our own choosing. What becomes sticky is when people try to outdo one another by expounding their own stronger faith. If one has a strong belief, all well and good, it can be very comforting when facing the "Big Chill," but it can also be very divisive when one assumes an attitude of superiority based on personal beliefs. As someone has already pointed out, Jesus main opponents were the organized religious leaders of his day who held fast to their "old" ideas. He sat, ate with, and befriended the "sinners" that the established religion had shunned. Our country was, and there is ample evidence, based on Judeo-Christian beliefs, though they did not name a particular religion. They left it to each one to believe (or not believe) in their creator.
    Through experience, I have found you really don't know what you truly believe until you come face to face with eternity. I have also found from experience that some of the most shallow people expound their beliefs the loudest. One who truly believes doesn't try push his (or her) beliefs on others. Some of history's real tragedy's have been committed in the name of religion. Some here have, rather cavalierly opted to "nuke 'em all." That isn't they way of Jesus. He did say if you didn't have a sword, get one.
    Just this past year my life was saved by a Muslim. He did it out of the tenants of his religion and love and care for his fellow man.
    I believe that all religions teach basically the same thing: Love one another, don't kill (murder), don't steal, treat each other as you would want to be treated.
    We still ( for the moment, anyway) have our freedoms. Let's all respect each others' beliefs and be comfortable with our own. TJ
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2009
  11. RunningOnMT

    RunningOnMT New Member

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    I would submit that there ARE no morals without God. That is one of the problems we have in our society today...too many people making value judgements based on their own idea of what is moral, not Gods'.

    Any actions thought to be moral, any righteous deeds, that are not based on the laws of our Creator are counterfeit at best and likely ignorantly evil. That speaks to the infiniteness of God and His goodness.

    Keep in mind, not everything that comes from religion comes from God.
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2009
  12. Doug.38PR

    Doug.38PR Member

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    In a way...it's not so unfortunate. It's times like this when things are bad off that we we realize we do need a Savior. It's the hard times that make us stronger.
    Some people may try to turn to Obama, while others of us turn to Jesus (and by Jesus I don't mean this mamby pamby fruity guy in a white robe that talks with a lisp to his voice about pacifism and hugging people encouraging them to wear multicolored WWJD bracelets:rolleyes:) I'm talking about the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. His Father who "prepares my hands for battle my fingers for war" and "who is my shepherd and shall not want."
    I think religion in politics do mix. Seperation of church and state doesn't appear in the Constitution (in spite of what many might think). And Jefferson, in the letter often refered to, didn't mean it the way modern people try to shape it.
    I think religion is a good thing. For one, it guards the state. It keeps it in line. The state has to account to the church. The state can't just trample on your liberties. It has a check. I'm not advocating, a "Church of America" or "Establishment" (although I think my above comment is a plus for Establishment, with all it's faults) but I am saying that religion is not something that is just "between you and God." Christianity is not just the government "allowing" Christians to just go to their little building over here and pray...and leave the "real" problems of the world to us "secular" people. We all live in a community. We all live in a state. "No man is an island unto himself." No, not everybody is going to see eye to eye on everything. There will even be men who have some degree or another of doubt about religion (which, BTW, is not necessarily a bad thing Don'tCryJefferson. Ever hear of "doubting" Thomas?. He doubted and questioned something once...he wasn't slammed for it...he was merely answered and shown evidence. It's never bad to ask questions. Especially Christians since asking questions is how you learn and grow.) It is important to have a common worldview on things. This is what liberals and neocons don't want. They don't want people united. They only want people united under their flags of government which they control. If "liberty" and "freedom" and "religion is between you and God" is your philosophy, then you are going to be merely a lone ranger. Unlike the masked hero, you will perish in your efforts. You will be a Randy Weaver or, worse, a David Koresh and die bunkered up alone or with a small cult. Anybody can say "They ain't takin' my gun" and blab about boarding yourself up in your house and wait for the swat to storm in and mow you down...but that's not going to bring victory.

    I'm glad more and more people are buying guns. And I'm even more glad to hear more and more people are taking Worship in church seriously. As said, people, I'm sure, aren't doing these things just to give them up to Obama. I hope people, organizing through their churches and state and community governments will keep an eye on Obama and jealously guard the hard won liberties they have and be mindful of how they live their lives and how their communities function

    BTW, TJay9, no I don't think you are a non-American because your once rural area has been overrunn by urbanites. Actually...I'd say you are in occupied territory;)
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2009
  13. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

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    TJ, MT, Doug -
    Outstanding points!

    Sam, THANK YOU for inviting me here!!!
  14. Teejay9

    Teejay9 New Member

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    Doug, thanks! That's a load off my mind. TJ
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