% of .22 "knock down power"...I need ideas.

Discussion in 'Self Defense Tactics & Weapons' started by Crpdeth, Jan 30, 2007.

  1. Crpdeth

    Crpdeth New Member

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    I'm almost at a loss for ideas here guys.

    I have a female cousin who lives just enough distance away that the only communication we ever get is via internet & phone, but I am known as the firearms enthusiast of the family so she has come to me with a recent problem...Her husband has recently flown the coop and she is left to spend many a night alone, awake, as the changes have left her without desire to sleep at night and she really wants some home protection in the way of a firearm.

    We have spent alot of time going over the differences between an Auto, Sa, Dao and she has gone to her local range/shop and fired a few different autos, and has decided that she does like the ammo capacity of an auto, but simply cannot find a .9mm that feels right in her hands, claiming that they all feel too big and top heavy...I also muse that she is anticipating recoil somewhat.

    Before now, I would never in my wildest dreams suggest a .22 for home protection, but after the extensive conversations I realize that what she really needs is range time, long comfortable sessions where she can become cozy with her weapon...Like me, she has small hands...Albeit small, she is very altheletic so I really wanted her to utilize that strength and go straight for a larger caliber, but it aint happening.

    I've suggested that she go try out a Browning Buckmark and a Walther P22 next. I know that she will eventually upgrade to a larger caliber and either trade the .22 in on it or have two guns around the home, but at this point I really think the slender, controlable size and comfortable recoil of those pieces is what she needs.

    OK...Finally to my question!

    How would a guy make a fair mathematical comparison between a .9mm and a .22 in terms of how it will affect the bad guy? Is there a way to look at the velocity/bullet mass differences and actually come up with a figure that you can sit down with and say for example "Hey you are hitting this guy with, say, 20% of the knockdown power that you could expect to get from a .9mm"?

    She would certainly be using Velocitors or a similar high velocity cartridge, but she posed the question about comparrison precentages and although I was proud that she even thought of it, I didnt have a clue how to answer her.

    Thanks in advance

    Crpdeth
  2. southernshooter

    southernshooter New Member

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    Let me start of with saying I am not a mathmetician
    A .22lr hyper velocite hollow point is about 1575fps a 185 energy foot pounds
    A 155gr Corbon JHP is turning out 1350fps 460and energy foot pounds
    To compare these numbers as a percentage of energy foot pounds
    I guess the .22 would be around 30% of the power of the 9mm. I guess that's about right
    I guess that's what you was needing
  3. First off, don't necessarily sell a .22 short, Crp. While I agree it is not the most effective caliber by any means, it is sometimes the best compromise possible for some shooters. Consider also, that if she buys a .22 she will still have it for inexpensive practice even if she later moves on to a more effective weapon.

    Now, as for comparison, here is a link that I have often found quite useful for that purpose. No "power comparison" chart is ever wholly reliable as you well know, but this one does give some very useful information and comes from a pretty reliable source. Hope it helps.

    http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 31, 2007
  4. Oneida Steve

    Oneida Steve Active Member

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    Well said, Pistolenschutze.

    Cprdeth, whenever anyone tells me that a .22 pistol is a toy, I remember back to 1981 and the Reagan shooting. We've all seen the video.

    I watched a .22 round take down a Secret Service agent and a DC policeman with one shot each. The same .22 round d#mn near killed Jim Brady and Pres. Reagan.

    Have your female cousin get a .22 pistol, and sleep easy at night.
  5. Lon Norder

    Lon Norder New Member

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    I hope this isn't one those unwelcome replies that doesn't directly answer the question, but....

    Would the AMT .22 mag automatic be worth considering? Apparently, Hi Standard is now manufacturing them. A reasonable review is here:
    www.gunblast.com/AMT-AutoMagII.htm

    I have several ideas in revolvers, but your friend wants volume firepower.

    Like the other good folks here, I wouldn't hesitate to use a .22LR under the circumstances. My wife has a crippled arm, and thus I was faced with a similar situation, and she used one of my .22 pistols for several years. I thought a good intermediate between there and the 9mm would be a .380 in the Beretta 85, which is a larger than usual .380. The added mass was not enough to reduce the recoil below 9 x 19mm levels, unfortunately.

    There are a great variety of pistols and rounds in .22LR, and she will be well served. Try different brands and bullet types. My Buckmark won't work with any of the lighter bullets below 38 gr. CCI makes a bullet which is high velocity, and breaks up into 3 pieces producing separate wound channels for SD and other uses. The original design was from Triton, but my "old man memory" has lost the actual name of this ammunition.

    Hope something here was useful. Good luck to you and your friend.

    LN
  6. Nighthawk

    Nighthawk New Member

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    she's better off hitting target with 22 then missing with 9mm IMHO
  7. Crpdeth

    Crpdeth New Member

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    Nor am I Southern, by any stretch of the imigination!

    I do appreciate the figures you've posted and am curious which 22 ammo you are using...It is quite a bit faster than the Velocitor.

    Thanks for the link Rich, I think it will be very usefull

    I agree with you and Nighthawk...A .22 is better than nothing and a couple blasts to the upper torso would send most men running and screaming into the night.

    Nighthawk, thats another thing I think of when I think of replying to this question...Yes, the precentage of knockdown power is going to be alot lower, but add that to the fact that you will be able to control the weapon and slap him with it again and again, where you may constantly miss with the nine kinda evens things out a little more. One thing I mentioned to her is a segment that I watched on Cops code red, where a guy stood out in the open directly in front of a Police officer who was braced against his cruiser and aimed a 30 30 rifle at him...The Officer took three quick shots with his duty pistol and missed with all three rounds. The point is that we become very stressed while placed in a position where we could very likely be killed, add to that the weapon of choice bouncing around a bit and it just adds another variable. Not only choosing a weapon that is easy to control, but spending some time becoming comfortable with that weapon, in my opinion, will be key for a new shooter.

    Rich...I also love the idea about affordable target practice even after the larger caliber pistol is bought.

    Good points Steve

    Not unwelcome at all Lon

    I have to admit that I dont have alot of knowledge about 22 pistols and honestly thought about a .22 Mag, but thought that she would have a hard time finding one that wasn't a revolver...I have never used an auto in .22Mag and will definately suggest that she follow this link you have submitted...Good looking piece!

    Thanks for all the responses guys...Keep them coming if you can!


    Crpdeth
  8. idocdave

    idocdave New Member

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  9. southernshooter

    southernshooter New Member

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    Those figures were on my ballistic chart for Aguilla 22LR Hyper Velocity 30 gr Hollow point
  10. Crpdeth

    Crpdeth New Member

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    Yeah, as facetious as your remark sounds due to the subject matter in the topic she has actually been trying her hand at skeet lately, but I say that she will have alot more control over a pistol for awhile.

    Aguilla, yummy....I knew this was top of the line stuff for target work, but never realized it hit so hard. Now I have another reason to order some. :D

    Thanks

    Crpdeth
  11. JohnK3

    JohnK3 New Member

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    Tell her to aim for the head. That's her best shot, no matter what the caliber. 40gr of lead rattling around in his brainpan is plenty to stop a BG.

    My wife is a very good shot with a 9mm. She likes and owns a CZ75. We picked it over the GLOCK, mainly because the GLOCK, being polymer, puts most of its weight up top, in the slide. The CZ balanced out with a steel frame, settling it in her hand better.

    Anyways, my wife consistently practices head shots and puts the rounds in the head in small, tiny groups. Since this is what she practices, this is what I expect to see when she has to shoot a BG: holes in their heads, no matter what the caliber.
  12. jvbladeslinger

    jvbladeslinger New Member

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    My wife is a small lady & can fire a large cal. but doesn't really like it. I bought her a .22 mag & she loves it. with hypervelocity rounds that are hollow point it is a real threat to anyone or anything in the way. Remember, most assassins world wide use .22 because of the lack of kick & the exit damaged caused by such a light projectile being pushed that fast in & out of a substance. The trjectory is also fairly flat so it realy is a "point & shoot" type weapon to an extent.
  13. cec

    cec New Member

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    I will not pretend to know the knockdown power of the .22. I do agree with most people that while the .22LR is not the first choice for this purpose, it is still a piece of metal flying at someone. It will hurt and there is the reaction to just being shot. That will usually trigger the flight response.

    One idea I have is to not count out the High cap .22LR revolvers. S&W and Taurus have 10 shot revolvers, which is the same as the Autos. Plus you have the advantage of less moving parts, easier to clean, and not having to think about if the slide was pulled before firing.
  14. Lon Norder

    Lon Norder New Member

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    CEC makes a good point about the .22 mag revolvers.

    I spent time looking for a concealable .22 mag and ended up buying a Taurus 941 Ultra Lite revolver. This is not a good self defense pistol. The trigger pull is easily in the 20 lb range. Many, if not most, women will not be able to effectively operate this POS.

    The mechanism is rough. I ran it through 1500 cycles before ever firing it, to wear in the trigger mechanism, and try to get smoother trigger pull. This was somewhat successful, and definitely improved the smoothness. That left the abyssmal trigger pull weight.

    I started with small adjustments. When I cut the coil mainspring, I started at ~ 3/4 of a single turn. The gun never fired again. The hammerstrike was too light. I spent the next year trying to get a new mainspring assembly from Taurus. They took my credit card number and promised to send me a new one. And they promised, and promised, and lied until my credit card expired. Gunsmiths in three states told me to forget ever obtaining parts from Taurus, and to expect my pistol to be gone for many months if I sent it in for service at Taurus. A friend in a firing range and gunsmith operation tried to get the part from Taurus for many months, and finally gave up. I took it to a gunsmith who examined the gun and my work, and noted the remaining compression on the spring, and commented that the spring was marginally adequate at best, in its original form. He agreed to put in an adequate spring, but warned me that the trigger pull would remain lousy. He was right.

    When I had an FFL, I sent my entire first shipment of Tauruses back because of the poor quality, and never bought any more. I should have known better, but thought they might have improved over the years. Wrong!!!

    Stick with the major brands and you'll have a better outcome. (I apologize for the rant. I started to just suggest the S&W, and not a Taurus 941, but I got carried away with my Taurus nightmare.) The same site I suggested for the Automag has a review on this same gun. They ended up paying for gunsmith work too, and also ended up with an unreasonably heavy trigger.

    LN
  15. Bill DeShivs

    Bill DeShivs Active Member

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    The mainspring is not what causes the hard trigger pull. The trigger return spring is the culprit. You probably can get a new mainspring from Wolff or Brownells.
    Bill
  16. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    This might interest you on .22LR stopping power.

    The guy who started Second Chance, the body armor company in the seventies that speerheaded the industry, is a former marine and got the idea from a shooting he was in while he was a pizza deliveryman.

    Some versions of the story he shot two, or three, killed one, wounded three etc. When I saw his interview about what motivated him to start making vests they recreated the shooting.

    In his version, it was dark and there were three men beside the house he was delivering to. Davis had the pizzas in one hand and his handgun under the boxes in the other hand. One guy pulled a .380 pistol and pointed at his head from 7-10 feet. Davis froze a few seconds, then shot the guy through the lower head. The other guy closest to him turned to run. Davis fired one shot, center of back, killing him instantly by severing spine.

    According to that he got 2 quick kills in a few moments with 2 aimed shots. His weapon: .22LR. I think in the reenactment it was a revolver.
  17. Crpdeth

    Crpdeth New Member

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    Very good stuff men (and lady:) )

    Just FYI, I have directed her to this thread and I believe you folks have made a positive impact on her decision making process.

    She tells me that she is "excited about this .22 idea" which makes me realize even more that this is a step in the right direction...Going from reluctantcy and even some fear, to "being excited". I have a huge smile on my face. :D

    Job well done folks!

    Keep the thoughts rolling in as you wish though.


    Crpdeth
  18. Deputy Dawg

    Deputy Dawg Active Member

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    I do not have the charts for a breakdown of the number, but more poeple are killed by 22s than all of the other ones here in the U.S.
  19. AL MOUNT

    AL MOUNT New Member

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    If the 1st round hits the BG, I would venture to bet he's not going to stop

    and try to anaylize what caliber it was......:D

    I would avoid any DA auto for this young lady due to trigger pull.

    Once comfortable with the .22, she could always upgrade to a

    smooth functioning machine, like a Sig or Walther in 9mm.
  20. Crpdeth

    Crpdeth New Member

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    Exactly...That is the plan. :D

    One thing I'm learning is that, just as with my little daughter they learn baby steps first...Maybe someday she will be my running partner and hopefully "show me up", but it takes a little time.

    Something we always say in my line of work regarding trees is that, the ones that grow up real fast die out real fast as well. But take a variety that comes along real slow, but steady...Those are the ones that are there forever.

    Crpdeth
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