Ok did I get took or did I win one?

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by OneFatCat, May 14, 2011.

  1. OneFatCat

    OneFatCat New Member

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    I bought this Springfield 1862 Trap Door today and wondered what the Pro's think? I realize its a little rough around the edges but I think for the most part its all here. The rifile was coverted in 1866 by Allin and is stamped on the breechblock....has the original 1862 lockplate ..and the 40 inch barrel with sights and has a "P" and an "A" stamped on the left side ..the one thing im not sure is missing or not would be the ram rod ..would a trap door conversion have a ram rod? I will post what I paid after I get a few opinions of condition and value from you guys.

    OFC

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    Last edited: May 15, 2011
  2. Alpo

    Alpo Well-Known Member

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    Picture 4 appears to show full-length wood. Goes to, maybe, 6" shy of the muzzle. Picture 8 appears to show a stock that's been chopped down. Looks like about a foot and a half, maybe two feet of naked barrel.

    Two different guns?
  3. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    There are several anomalies about that rifle that make me doubt its originality. One is that the front of the foreend cap should be almost exactly three inches from the muzzle; that stock looks like it has been cut down or is not for that rifle.

    Also, the use of an 1862 lockplate is odd; they generally used new rifle-muskets for conversion, and lockplates are usually 1864 or 1865.

    The old barrels were reamed out and sleeved to .50 and that should show at the muzzle.

    HTH

    Jim
  4. fuzebox40

    fuzebox40 Active Member

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    Glancing through the pictures there I got the impression there was more than one rifle there. Smoke and mirrors?
  5. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

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    yeah my eye's too eh
  6. OneFatCat

    OneFatCat New Member

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    yeh pic 4 was an accident sorry it was in my photobucket and i posted it by misatke ..I bought this old riffe just to be a wall hangger over my fireplace ....paid $300

    OFC
    Last edited: May 15, 2011
  7. Hawg

    Hawg Active Member

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    It appears to be a 45-70 Springfield barreled action in an earlier cut down stock, not a conversion
    Last edited: May 15, 2011
  8. deadin

    deadin Well-Known Member

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    Pic #4 shows the top view of the breech. Pic #7 is the cut down stock fore end. Which one is the mistake??
    #4 shows the attachment method on a 2nd Allin conversion. As said by Jim K it should be in 50/70 and the sleeve should be evident. Is it even rifled?
    If not and taken the date on the lockplate it may be a Bannerman put-together.
    Depending on the answers from above, $300 may be about all it's worth.
    (If that much.....)
  9. Diamondback

    Diamondback Active Member

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    I have a sporterized 1873 trapdoor. (No I didn't butcher it. My Uncle did.) I am not sure what you've got, but it is apparently an earlier version of the 1873. The hammer is shaped wrong and you are missing a small spur on the latch. This rifle is also apparently lacking an extractor, the top of which is visible on the top left of the hinge plate. Still, it is an interesting looking rifle. Have you determined the caliber?
  10. Hawg

    Hawg Active Member

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    He deleted the offending pic.
  11. deadin

    deadin Well-Known Member

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    Ah So!! That was the one that showed what appeared to be a full length stock? ( or nearly so.)
    In that case what he has is mostly a M1866 2nd Allin Conversion with a cut down stock and no ramrod. The lockplate is questionable as to originality, but in any case, it's not much better than a wallhanger or parts gun as far as value as a collectible goes.
    Make up a great story as to how GGranpa stood off the Indians with it and hang it over the fireplace.....;);):D
  12. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    It is definitely a conversion, not a .45-70 Model 1873 or later. Whether it is/was a Model 1866 is a question. That it is a conversion is shown by the fact that the hinge plate is screwed to the barrel, which was the common way of attaching the Allin breechblock on conversions. The first trapdoor to have a new receiver was the Model 1868. Prior to that, the top of the old rifle musket barrel was cut away, the "trapdoor" breechblock added, and the hammer replaced.

    By 1873, when the new rifle and carbine were adopted, the guns were almost all new, though some Civil War era parts were used up until they were gone. Even the Model 1873 bayonets were CW bayonets; after producing a few new bayonets, Springfield found they could cold forge the bayonet ring down to fit the .45-70 barrel and that allowed them to use the old bayonets and save money. (Was that the last time the government tried to save the taxpayers' money?) It was not until the CW surplus supply of bayonets and scabbards ran out that Springfield decided to go with a rod bayonet.

    As to that gun, if the stock is cut down, and the barrel smooth, it might very well have been made into a shotgun, or was built from surplus/reject parts. The plan was that the Model 1866 would be the standard rifle for some time, so many more breechblocks were made than were ever used. When the rifle proved a disappointment (for several reasons), those parts were sold on the surplus market and many were used to make what amounted to Model 1866 copies, mostly shotguns with the old rifling reamed out and the barrels not lined for .50.

    Jim
  13. Hawg

    Hawg Active Member

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    You're probably right Jim. In the pic it looks to me like the barrel is too small in relation to the stock to have originally been a .58 and the front sight looks to be too far back.
  14. deadin

    deadin Well-Known Member

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    No, that's a standard .58 caliber musket barrel. From the outside everything looks OK. Right rear sight, right hammer, right hinge mounting, right 40" barrel, etc.
    Obviously has had the stock cut and only an inspection will tell if it has a .50 cal liner or has been bored out. The 1862 dated lock is not normal for the 2nd Allin (should be 1863 or '64) and could indicate a parts gun from the git-go.
  15. OneFatCat

    OneFatCat New Member

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    Well I did buy it just to hang over the fireplace ...I looked down the barrel iand it is really hard to tell if it is rifled or not ...here are a few more pictures ..

    OFC

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