Old Warriors and a New Lease on Life... ( 1 2 )

Discussion in 'Informational & Technical Archives' started by ruffitt, Feb 24, 2003.

  1. ruffitt

    ruffitt *TFF Admin Staff* In Heaven Now

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    WyomingSwede
    Moderator
    Posts: 71
    (8/7/01 7:20:14 am)
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    I was kicking this around last nite and thought I would post it and get some opinions from the gang here.
    When sporterizing a surplus weapon...you are destroying collectibility in most cases.(Bob shudders at this point...LOL).Undoubtedly you can limit the number of pristine collector pieces by doing this, but are you not also giving an old warrior a new lease on life? I am not talking some garage/closet hacksaw artist with a pipecutter and a garage full of baling wire.
    My son has an old Mark IV enfield that I bought off the net for $40. It has a camo stock and the absolute gaudiest,green neon gobby glow in the dark paint job on that stock in the western world. Yet it shoots well and he wouldn't trade it for a new weatherby.(appeals to the 13 yr old mind set)
    Yet that rifle could be sitting in a depot somewhere collecting dust, or waiting to be demilitarized by the UN or some other such nonsense.
    When I have taken non shooting friends out to the range..I generally take my swede and my makarov. They are fun to shoot and when I tell them how cheaply surplus arms &ammo can be bought...well it seems that I make another convert.
    Any opinions on the collecting vs sporterizing tradeoff? It seems that we are modifying pieces of history, yes, but are we also not increasing our ranks by introducing new folks to the joys of affordable firearms???? Regards swede
    Wyoming Swede

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1556
    (8/7/01 7:26:09 am)
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    Wyoming,

    I too have a sporterized .303 and would not trade it for the world. Unfortunately, it is set up for a scope and I have never yet been able to use a scope correctly - for some reason I don't see what I should see I guess. Still I do love the gun if for no other reason then sentimentality since it is one of the first guns I myself ever bought.

    On the other hand, I've also been looking for one that was still original and the same basic model. Found one by accident this weekend and immediately told BobinStLouis to hold it and I would send the money when I got home - he's a sweetheart 'cause he said no problem. I tend to like the old military rifles as they are but have few problems with people sporterizing them provided the job is done well and they will use the gun. What I hate to see is when someone does that to a weapon without thinking of what it might be worth in its original form these days or just because they are bored and do a half ass job of it and ruin the gun totally.

    So I agree with most of what you say but I just shudder when I think of what has been done to some weapons of immense historical value just because of boredom.

    Spanish Cruffler
    Member
    Posts: 16
    (8/7/01 7:33:13 am)
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    Some of the old warriors are best served as a base for sporterizing. If it is not an exceptionally rare piece, or has seen some wear and abuse that knocks down it's collectable value - then sporterizing it to a new serviceable level is probably the best thing that can be done. I just sold an old Spanish 7mm rifle to Fredneck for that purpose - it was still in original military configuration, but well used, and not a unique or rare piece. I am hoping he makes a nice sporterized deer rifle out of it for Mesen.

    Xracer
    Moderator
    Posts: 735
    (8/7/01 8:04:03 am)
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    It's always been thus and so.....at the turn of the (20th) century, you could buy Civil War Springfields from Sears & Roebuck for $2.50 (complete with bayonet). In the 1920's, you could buy Krags and Springfield '03s for less than 10 bucks....in the '50s, you could buy 98Ks for $12.....and there were hundreds of thousands of these guns available. Who could forsee that someday they'd become valuable in their original configuration?

    I guess the best bet is that when various MilSurp weapons become available cheap.....buy two and keep the best one original.



    tuckerd1
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 377
    (8/7/01 8:27:34 am)
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    JMHO, But if you like to collect, collect it and display it. If you like to shoot, shoot in its' original config or if you like to tinker with things customize it to your likings. These old weapons are not going to become extinct because there are enough collectors and museums out there to see to that. And unless you find a rare or unique piece, you will not see great financial gains from the originals. Enjoy the weapon as you see fit.

    Mesen
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 190
    (8/7/01 8:42:03 am)
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    Glad this topic came up was looking over this rifle and the bore is pretty good would I be better off having it cut, contured and crowned or replacing it? was planning on leaving it in 7x57 also can anyone recommend a smith? was talking to one on the phone yesterday told him what I was looking to accomplish namely light weight rifle synthetic stock and parkerized finish and he said that was not what I wanted so I hung up on him. Call me rude but if it's my money it's my likes not theirs.
    Fredneck
    IF YOU VALUE YOUR FREEDOM, THANK A VET!

    Zigzag2
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 894
    (8/7/01 8:49:21 am)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: Old Warriors and a New Lease on Life...
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    This has been an Age-Old debate... original is good, but nothing like a Hot-Rod!

    kdubaz
    Moderator
    Posts: 472
    (8/7/01 11:27:16 am)
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    My head hangs in guilt of the several military rifles I have hacked on to make into sporterized versions. No, no - take that back. I learned much while sporterizing them. Learned such a firearm can cost more to morph than buying a "ready-made" commercial in the same caliber!

    'Course, some of them were rebarrelled/rechambered into calibers not available on the commercial market, so buying a "ready-made" and converting would have been more expensive.

    Hmmmmmmmmm! The ol' conundrum - Should I, or shouldn't I?

    Like said before, if it isn't a pristine example of a rare model, there's enough around that will satifsy the purists for collection or original military style shooting. Some great sporters can be made up of these guns and a certain amount of pleasure is attained in taking one and transforming it into a modern day shooter. If the urge to modify is there - go for it!!
    Keep below the ridgeline!

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 585
    (8/7/01 12:48:04 pm)
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    Mesen,

    If you are planning to have the barrel contoured you might as well buy a new barrel that is already contoured. Same money, or darn close, and you will probably get a better barrel. There are pre-threaded barrels available for your rifle that would just require finish chambering and headspacing. Most cost-efficient way to go, if you want a sporter contour barrel.

    A few other mods I would suggest to make the rifle easier to use... The floorplate/trigger guard assembly should be replaced or at least modernized. You'll need a decent trigger. The whole bolt-shroud/safety thing could be nicer. You could spend a BUNCH of money on that if you wanted, but there are some less expensive alternatives.

    By "parkerizing" are you referring to a true gray phosphate finish? The Teflon finishes are similar in appearance but actually more weather-resistant.


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    the real fredneck
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 219
    (8/7/01 1:20:48 pm)
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    Antique Dr
    Thanks for the info on the barrel so if I replace the barrel I might switch calibers. Which of the finishes is less expensive the phosphate or the teflon? Don't want to be too cheap but pretty or exotic is not what I'm wanting to accomplish the rifle will be used for hunting and it's going to get marks on it just no way around that. That was what the guy yesterday and I had different opinions on. He was telling me I wanted a nice wood stock and polished bluing after I had just explained to him what I wanted the rifle for. When I get it finished I want it to be light weight and non-reflective flat black w/decent fixed power scope.

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 586
    (8/7/01 1:28:41 pm)
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    Sure, you could change calibers but the 7x57 is one of the best deer calibers there is. Probably THE best is the 7x57 Improved (Ackley). Mild recoil and works fine on deer to as far as you want to shoot 'em.

    All Teflon finishes are not created equal. Some last forever, but I've seen horror stories too. My suggestion is to go with a fine sandblast blue. Will look better than ANY parkerizing, and give you a nice matte finish. Have the bolt body polished, and the extractor matte-blued; looks great!



    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    kdubaz
    Moderator
    Posts: 474
    (8/7/01 3:52:32 pm)
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    I've successfully used 7x57 AI, shooting 162 gr Hornady's, on elk and deer - great caliber.
    Keep below the ridgeline!

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 588
    (8/7/01 6:57:42 pm)
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    I've got one of those Turkish Mausers sitting around here somewhere. When I get a chance, it's going to become a .338-06 Improved.


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    WyomingSwede
    Moderator
    Posts: 72
    (8/8/01 6:24:42 am)
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    Thanks for the replies guys...I kinda favor the buy two cause they are cheap and keep the better one original theory myself.
    AD...you'll love that 338-06..I've had one for about three years and love it. Hits like the hammer of Thor, yet you dont have to have your shoulder surgically removed from the stock every time you fire it. Really shines with the 225 & 250 gr bullets. Nuff said..thanks again ...swede
    Wyoming Swede

    Mesen
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 197
    (8/8/01 6:58:21 am)
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    Antique Dr
    You mentioned less expensive alternatives regarding the safety. I was considering replacing the trigger with one that had a safety and putting a different shroud on it but would appreciate any and all suggestions. This is my first time at this and would really like to get it right the first time.
    Thanks
    Fredneck
    IF YOU VALUE YOUR FREEDOM, THANK A VET!

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 593
    (8/8/01 7:17:30 am)
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    Nothing wrong with that plan. Timney makes a great trigger with a safety. Just be aware that you are going to have to inlet your stock for that safety.

    There are shrouds available that have a M70-style safety built in.

    The less expensive route is a Buehler-type safety (no mill work) or one of the M70 coversion safety kits for your existing shround that require one mill cut.

    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com



    Mesen
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 198
    (8/8/01 7:36:44 am)
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    Antique Dr
    Was looking at options the Buhler style safety and replacement trigger w/o safety is roughly the same price as a trigger w/safety the M-70 style safetys and shroud is twice as expensive of course this is based on prices out of Midway catalog any suggestions for other sources? also who makes a decent/good barrel at reasonable price? are the Adans & Benett barrels for Midway any good? Not building a target rifle so not wanting to spend several hundred on a barrel. Was planning on doing a lot of the work myself and farming out the rest. Is there machining that has to be done to the receiver? Can anyone suggest any web sites for information on building a mauser rifle? (don't want to go buy a book cause it might cause an addiction)
    IF YOU VALUE YOUR FREEDOM, THANK A VET!

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 595
    (8/8/01 11:40:39 am)
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    You cant go wrong with Shilen. Brownell's has Shilen barrels already threaded for large-ring 98 Mausers. These barrels are "short-chambered" which means a finish reamer must be used for final fitting once the barrel is mounted. Theoretically, a lathe is not necessary.

    You WILL need a barrel vise (or a proper adapter for the bench vise) and an appropriate barrel wrench for the 98 action. Please do not skimp on this. Many actions have been ruined by improper barrel removal. You really should also clean up the receiver threads and face the front of the receiver while you have the opportunity. Once the new barrel is installed, you will need a "finish" chambering reamer for 7x57 (or 7x57 Improved if you so choose) and the appropriate headspace gauges. Actually a fairly simple process.

    Once you get this far, you will not be happy with the factory bottom metal or the bolt handle, bent or not....

    Check out www.brownells.com, but have your checkbook handy...

    The Brownells # for the correct Shilen barrel is 801-175-092, retail is $195.25.

    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    tuckerd1
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 386
    (8/8/01 1:31:41 pm)
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    Fredneck, Contact Shooter45 @ shooter45_us@yahoo.com for prices from
    Brownells. Maybe he can help you some with the parts.

    Don

    WyomingSwede
    Moderator
    Posts: 74
    (8/8/01 11:23:25 pm)
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    Here is a link to a site where a guy was building a swedish mauser (what else of course). Perhaps it will enlighten...best wishes...swede


    www.geocities.com/yosemit...dmaus.html


    damn thing is too long...I'll try again.
    Wyoming Swede

    Edited by: WyomingSwede at: 8/9/01 12:29:48 am

    the real fredneck
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 242
    (8/10/01 8:50:15 am)
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    Had another brainstorm about this M-93 last night. The minimum legal barrel length of 16" would be measured from where? end of barrel or front edge of receiver? was thinking of bobbing barrel to just in front of handguard cutting front of stock to match it. This would leave it looking pretty original would be simple to relocate front sight since it would be on the same step of barrel. Anyone ever tried this before? or am I out in left field awaiting the mothership?

    kdubaz
    Moderator
    Posts: 493
    (8/10/01 11:07:54 am)
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    Barrel length is measured from bolt face to muzzle, NOT from front receiver ring to muzzle. Close bolt, run cleaning rod down barrel and mark at end of muzzle - that's your true barrel length.

    Keep below the ridgeline!

    Edited by: kdubaz at: 8/10/01 12:10:40 pm
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