One of the best Editorials I have read

Discussion in 'The Fire For Effect and Totally Politically Incorr' started by ysacres, Mar 6, 2003.

  1. ysacres

    ysacres Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2001
    Messages:
    2,496
    Location:
    Wazzu WA
    Fresh20
    Member
    Posts: 38
    (2/22/03 7:18:11 pm)cointoss 2
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 1328
    (2/18/03 10:08:11 am)
    Reply One of the Best Editorials I have read
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This was passed on to me and it is very long please bear with me:

    With all the recent press on the World situation and the subsequent finger
    pointing, I came across one of the best editorials I've read from a most
    unlikely source, a British newspaper (aka: a scandal sheet) known as the
    Daily Mirror.

    Just a word of background for those of you who are not familiar with the
    Daily Mirror newspaper, which is published in England. It is a notorious,
    left wing daily and is usually very anti-American. It is kind of hard to
    believe that they published this editorial. The author is Tony Parsons.

    It is worth reading as follows:

    September 11, 2002
    ONE year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting - the
    mass murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the pitiless
    cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot's
    mountain of skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage
    in the Nazi concentration camps. An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated
    and so utterly merciless that surely the world could agree on one thing -
    nobody deserves this fate.

    Surely there could be consensus: the victims were truly innocent, the
    perpetrators truly evil. But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly
    seen as America's comeuppance. Incredibly, anti-Americanism has
    increased over the last year.

    There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country
    - too loud, too rich, too full of themselves and so much happier than
    Europeans - but it has become an epidemic.

    And it seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach.
    America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are
    bonded to the US by culture, language and blood.

    A little over half a century ago, around half a million Americans died
    for our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And
    exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women and children - not
    just Americans, but from dozens of countries - were butchered by a small
    group of religious fanatics. Are we so quick to betray them?

    What touched the heart about those who died in the twin towers and on
    the planes was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers,
    somebody's son and somebody's daughter, husbands and wives. And children.
    Some unborn. And these people brought it on themselves? And their nation
    is to blame for their meticulously planned laughter?

    These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or
    Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan. The
    anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the
    Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering
    from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it
    likes without having to ask permission.

    The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since
    September 11. Remember, remember.

    Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to
    say, "I love you," before they were burned alive.

    Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning
    skyscrapers.

    Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive.

    Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one
    of the planes with her mum.

    Remember, remember - and realize that America has never retaliated for
    9/11 in anything like the way it could have.

    So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial in Camp X-ray?
    Pass the Kleenex.

    So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired
    their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but
    maybe next time they should stick to confetti.

    AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot.
    That it didn't is a sign of strength. American voices are already being
    raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many
    in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered
    innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say
    that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination?

    When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving
    Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that -
    and didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the
    most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did
    not provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism". A real war.

    The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell",
    if America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of
    hell like you wouldn't believe. The US is the most militarily powerful nation
    that ever strode the face of the earth. The campaign in Afghanistan may
    have been less than perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be
    misconceived.

    But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these
    wretched countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East,
    or in the Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one
    hand -assuming you haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.

    I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's
    poodle. But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh.

    Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be -
    rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or
    religion, or some caste system.

    America is the best friend this country ever had and we should start
    remembering that. Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil?

    Tell it to the loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death
    from the burning towers. Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands
    died on one of the hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing
    skyscraper. And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands
    worked for the New York Fire Department. To our shame, George Bush
    gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein.

    Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people
    and set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street.
    Save me the orange centre, oh mighty one!

    Remember, remember, September 11. One of the greatest atrocities in
    human history was committed against America.

    No, do more than remember. Never forget.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the following Multiple
    Choice test.

    The events are actual events from past history. They actually happened!
    Do you remember?

    1. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred
    by: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    2. In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by: Muslim male
    extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    3. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
    Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    4. In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
    Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    5. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old
    American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair
    by: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    6. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver
    trying to rescue passengers was murdered by: Muslim male extremists
    mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    7. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by: Muslim male extremists
    mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    8. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by: Muslim
    male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    9. In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
    Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    10. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles
    to take out the World Trade Center and of the remaining two, one crashed
    into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted to a crash by the passengers.
    Thousands of people were killed by: Muslim male extremists mostly
    between the ages of 17 and 40

    11. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
    Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    12. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
    Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

    Nope, I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you?

    So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatic's
    intent on killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be
    allowed to profile certain people. They must conduct random searches
    of 80-year old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification,
    Secret Service agents who are members of the President's security detail,
    85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of Honor winning former
    Governors.

    Let's send this to as many people as we can so that the 'Gloria Aldreds'
    and other dunder headed attorneys along with Federal Justices that want
    to thwart common sense, feel doubly ashamed of themselves.

    As the writer of the award winning story Forest Gump so aptly put it,
    "Stupid is as stupid does!"

    What happened on September 11, 2001 happened to our neighbors, as if in
    your own back yard!!

    Feel it?

    Let's not forget. Our lives, the lives of our children and grandchildren

    TAKE TIME TODAY TO SEE THE BLESSINGS

    Theres, now we can read it - ruffitt
    cointoss2

    Edited by: ruffitt at: 2/18/03 1:06:38 pm

    Zigzag2
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 5613
    (2/18/03 10:27:21 am)
    Reply Re: One of the Best Editorials I have read
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Good read Cointoss...

    God Bless America

    ruffitt
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1533
    (2/18/03 1:33:31 pm)
    Reply
    Re: One of the Best Editorials I have read
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Thought provoking to say the least.

    It's just too bad that it will never be seen in any of the main stream publications both here in the US and abroad; in some of the Countries we saved and pulled their collective a$$e$ out of the fire back in the 1930' and 40's.

    How soon they forget the sacrifices made to protect them; the aid we gave them and their subsequent return to prosperity.

    I'm sure the "old folks" remember, I'm also sure that they support us.
    It is the younger generation(s) - the "Yuppie" types and "Baby Boomers"-that have not faced the terrors of war or the consequences thereof causing the dissent in the world today. They think that love and understanding will cure all. If they would only face reality they would soon come to realize that the entire world does not share their concept(s). There are others in the world that directly oppose their agenda and peace loving activities.





    Fresh20
    Member
    Posts: 33
    (2/18/03 2:19:19 pm)
    Reply Nah, sorry - not how it is.....
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sorry Cointoss, just don't agree with this one....

    "Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be - rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or religion, or some caste system."

    Free? Open? Optimistic? Free Religion - better not be one of those millions of muslims (more than in Afghanistan!) in the US.

    You are not hated for those reasons!

    Your government is dealing with the terrorist network that caused the dark, dark events that september day. Still fighting on in Afghanistan, too.

    America is distrusted for not wanting to be part of a united earth, UN... well, it's still got a ways to go - it's still a step in the right direction, Eco-terrorism - how many of you folks CARE that the USA uses more of the worlds rapidly dwindling resources than EVERYONE else???? Your president refuses to ratify the Kyoto protocols on reducing greenhouse gas emissions, because it will cost the US too much to clean up! The whole world continues to pay the cost of uncontrolled pollution by many of its most prosperous nations.

    How much of this agenda against Iraq is due to the opportunity to secure your oil supplies for the next 20 years through force? What's a war going to do to your internal security? Terrorists WILL GET THROUGH! You can't keep them out - the only hope is to look at the causes of that hatred. If your government goes to war, you, the average american (let alone a gun-totin' one) will suffer through a loss of your basic freedoms - we aint seen nuthin' yet!

    More Afghani civilians have died as a direct result of US action (mostly B52s and B2s - blunt objects if there ever were) than were killed on 09/11.

    Remember the CIA in Central America? Who remembers El Salvador?

    Read the speech by Ron Paul..... a little more realistic.


    whiteclouder
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 353
    (2/18/03 4:18:56 pm)
    Reply Nah, sorry.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    fresh:

    You're not sorry, my friend, you're pitiful. And a liar to boot.

    quote---Your president refuses to ratify the Kyoto protocols on reducing greenhouse gas emissions, because it will cost the US too much to clean up!

    The reason we cannot ratify the treaty is because the two worst polluters in the world, India and China, are given exemptions.

    And unless you have been to Afghanistan and counted the non-combatant fatalities you cannot say what you did. And to do so is inflamitory, which I think was your point.

    I don't think I'm going to like you.

    Clouder..

    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 6284
    (2/18/03 4:31:27 pm)
    Reply
    and my .02.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You seem to be a believer in the UN Fresh20 yet why is it you do not support the US in its struggle to enforce the UN directives towards Iraq that Iraq has ignored for the last 12 years. That is what it is about, not oil.

    The UN is useless if it has no bite behind its bark.


    As far as the rest of the world hating us because we will not be part of the "united earth". That is fine by me. We believe in democracy and freedom. The "united earth" ideals are a direct threat to all that Americans consider dear. There are many Americans who think we need to pull out of the UN for that reason.








    Ignorance is a crime in 49 states. In the other one it is bliss.




    Fresh20
    Member
    Posts: 34
    (2/18/03 5:00:56 pm)
    Reply Got some anger issues to resolve?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Well, that bought out reactionary action...

    Clouder, sticks 'n stones..... "Liar, Pitiful..."?? Hmmm, breathe deep & get over yourself.

    Do you think that the USA, if it desired, couldn't put economic pressure on one of it's most favoured trading partners (and a country it's fought against - openly or not) in at least two wars/conflicts, to change, well. The difference with the US is that you can afford to change - they cannot. The US chooses not to change. To point the finger at nations going thru what you did in the 50s and go "well, they're not!!" Childish behavior at best.

    "I don't think I'm going to like you." He broke my crayons, miss!!!!

    As for not supporting the US in its struggle to enforce the UN directives towards Iraq that Iraq has ignored for the last 12 years.... I do support enforcing the UN directives - your president has stated that the US'll go in regardless of the UN and popular opinion..... The actions of countries (including Iraq) that work against the UN help ensure that the UN (UNITED NATIONS - not just the loudest, biggest or the ones with axes to grind, for whatever reason) will continue to have trouble making a difference.

    Why, oh why doesn't the USA want UN peacekeepers in Iraq instead of going to war?????? So's y'all can continue to drive your big 'ole 4wd trucks to the shops and back!

    Suck in on the personal attacks and discuss the issues.

    The UN is useless if it has no bite behind its bark.


    As far as the rest of the world hating us because we will not be part of the "united earth". That is fine by me. We believe in democracy and freedom. The "united earth" ideals are a direct threat to all that Americans consider dear. There are many Americans who think we need to pull out of the UN for that reason.






    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 6285
    (2/18/03 5:04:37 pm)
    Reply
    keep it civil and clean
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    edited because I had a brain malfunction




    Ignorance is a crime in 49 states. In the other one it is bliss.




    Edited by: warpig883 at: 2/18/03 5:17:38 pm

    Zigzag2
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 5625
    (2/18/03 5:12:46 pm)
    Reply Re: keep it civil and clean
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Clouder back off the personal attacks...



    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Tell the gossipers and liars I will see them in the fire" - Johnny Cash, Let the train whistle blow
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    ZiggedandZagged@aol.com



    ibtrukn
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 1714
    (2/18/03 6:00:37 pm)
    Reply Re: keep it civil and clean
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Klowder, sounds a bit like yur ol pal bullzeye...whacha tink?

    AGunguy
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 3392
    (2/18/03 7:15:50 pm)
    Reply Re: keep it civil and clean
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Be interesting to know what country this bloke is from. Some like to attack us, the USA, from behind anonymity.

    Then perhaps we could point out a few things wrong with his people and their little paradise.

    Fresh20, how do you feel about gun confiscation, do you have free access to firearms in your country.

    Do you drive you own car or pickup truck to your shops...or do you just ride your bicycle to work or the pub.

    Gunguy

    Tac401
    Administrator
    Posts: 7006
    (2/18/03 9:36:55 pm)
    Reply
    Re: keep it civil and clean
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Debate on, interesting conversation, let's all just keep
    the discussion civil folks. Opinions are fine but letting
    emotions/personal feelings go the wrong direction,
    only takes away from a good read.

    Carry on and remember the purpose of why we all
    enjoy the boards in the first place. A good clean
    debate is a good read.


    Tac
    TFF VMBB Email Tac

    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 1108
    (2/18/03 10:15:58 pm)
    Reply Re: One of the Best Editorials I have read
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Man, I have so many problems with Fresh20's arguments, I don't even know where to start.

    First of all, I am also curious where you're from, Fresh20. I'm guessing France. Or most likely, France's red-headed stepchild, Canada.


    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Free? Open? Optimistic? Free Religion - better not be one of those millions of muslims (more than in Afghanistan!) in the US.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I'm not quite sure what you meant by that. Muslims in the US are more free to practice their religion than in most Muslim countries. They are not FORCED to practice Islam in any way. In fact, they are free to walk away from their faith here or practice it to their heart's content. Regardless of a few isolated incidents after 9/11 (which were WAY overdone by the media), we don't care if a person is Muslim, Jewish, Christian or pagan. They are free to choose their god here.


    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The whole world continues to pay the cost of uncontrolled pollution by many of its most prosperous nations.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    America may indeed produce more pollution than most countries. You know why? WE'RE BIGGER! If you looked at it from a scientific standpoint instead of regurgitating what your Greenpeace mentor told you, you would see that America is a very responsible nation when it comes to pollution. Compare any US city to Mexico City, where spending a day downtown is the equivalent of smoking two packs of cigarettes. Go look in South America where they burn millions of square miles of rain forest on purpose. If you're out to slam America because of pollution, then you'd better clean up the real polluters first.


    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    More Afghani civilians have died as a direct result of US action (mostly B52s and B2s - blunt objects if there ever were) than were killed on 09/11.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Nice try. Most of those "civilians" were toting AK-47s and defending the Taliban government. When we said we would make war with terrorists and those who harbor them, we meant it. You see, unlike your beloved UN, we actually mean what we say and we back it up with deeds. We do not indiscriminately kill civilians. If you recall, we went above and beyond any previous efforts in history to avoid killing non-combatants. We dropped food rations to the people who were starving under the Taliban. We dropped leaflets to the enemy, telling them how to surrender peacefully so they would avoid needless death. Gimme a break.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 7007
    (2/19/03 6:02:16 am)
    Reply Re: One of the Best Editorials I have read
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Too much.......no comment-tis a lost battle if believing in the UN and other rediculious global agreements. What a farce.


    LTS



    whiteclouder
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 355
    (2/19/03 10:58:55 am)
    Reply Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    zig:

    You're right, sorry. I meant, he'd a modern Ananias. Still don't think I'm going to like him much though, and if that's personal, so be it.

    Clouder..

    AGunguy
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 3397
    (2/19/03 12:29:07 pm)
    Reply Re: Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You know, that Fresh20 dude was pretty testy throwing it into our face the way he did, then down right sarcastic to spit on our shoes or hobnail boots with his anti American sentiments.

    I really get a hoot out of these wonderkinds that like to hide behind their anonymity and cast aspersions at the USA. Then they cheer when 9-11 or the space shuttle goes down in flames...real quality folks...most of them are probably socialist that belong to the UN no doubt.

    Clouder, you is a bad boy, (high five to you sir) please don't say disrespectful talk to the nice man the next time he pays us a visit and decides to crap on our shoes again.

    Gunguy



    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2108
    (2/19/03 1:29:41 pm)
    Reply Re: Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I ain't gonna get involved on this one - ol' Piggie n' I'll sit on the sidelines, munching crackerjacks, while you guys hammer it out!
    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 6298
    (2/19/03 1:35:53 pm)
    Reply
    Re: Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Only if I get the prize out of the Crackerjacks




    Ignorance is a crime in 49 states. In the other one it is bliss.




    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3797
    (2/19/03 3:10:28 pm)
    Reply Re: Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    OK, who's left holding the pooper-scooper?

    cointoss 2
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 1336
    (2/19/03 8:10:54 pm)
    Reply Re: Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Guess it is me Bob, little did I think this would be pondered that much.
    cointoss2

    Fresh20
    Member
    Posts: 37
    (2/22/03 7:03:22 pm)
    Reply Re: Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sooo much to say & so little time....
    Well, for starters, as I've said before on this forum, I come from New Zealand. Whom amongst you know where that is without consulting a map? Just a question, not a taunt - before y'all get all hot under the collar!
    I've lived in the US - panhandle Texas if ya wanna know.
    New Zealand requires gun owners to be licenced - all good, I'm happy to know that there's a fair chance that nutjobs are going to be weeded out during the process.
    GunGuy - I've got a car, but choose to ride my bike, paddle my kayak, whatever - keeps the belly from obscuring my feet!
    1952 - France sent commandos into NZ in the 80s and mined a ship (admittedly a Greenpeace ship) in Auckland harbour - the international community (including the USA) was pretty bloody silent when we caught the DSGN agents red-handed. Kept them for a while but were bullied into letting them go back to good-ole frog land - NZ'ers have more reason to dislike Frenchies than you folks!
    Clouder - Ananias said "God will strike you, you whitewashed wall!" (WhiteWaller?) Sorry, poor taste to go mocking someones nickname.


    Reply Re: Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    To continue.
    I watch and read and listen to what is happening around the world & what is happening to you and your liberties is frightening! The things your government is getting away with in the name of The War on Tourism on the domestic front is scary. Y'all are talking about these things & agreeing with one another - hell, even I agree with you.
    Can't you see that what the USA (read GB & cohorts - love him or hate him) is trying to do on a global level in this war is the same.
    Can't you see that going to war in the gulf is going to make things worse for you at home?
    You cannot keep terrorists (read tourists or vice-versa) out of your country without further eroding away the civil liberties of the american people. Your borders are too big, your population too dense, your culture too damaged - wait! before the flaming begins AGAIN, I'm talking bits of it - there've been discussions on this forum on keeping "townies" (fellow americans???) out of your countryside if it all turns to custard. You encourage an attacked woman to yell "FIRE" for heavens sake, not "Help" 'cos no-one's gonna come!
    There are problems, are there not? Internal/external - it won't help to go fry another bunch of godless raghead heathens(fellow humans) if it makes the problem worse and not better.

    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 1122
    (2/22/03 8:18:38 pm)
    Reply Re: Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Fresh20, you bring up some valid points. However, I think you are making the same assumptions that the rest of the world is making. You are assuming that our plan to oust Saddam Hussein is based solely on a selfish attempt to protect ourselves from future terrorist attacks. Perhaps this is part of the plan, but it is a minor part.

    I'm sure you've heard the phrase, "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it". How different do you think the world would be today if America had stood up in 1938 and decided that we were going to oust Adolf Hitler? Wouldn't you agree that it would have been the right thing to do, now that we know what he was up to?

    Don't you think the same could be said of Saddam Hussein? This is not a battle to simply protect the fragile American sense of safety. It is about taking a madman out of power before he can develop weapons that he would use to kill millions. In fact, I would venture to say that it is not Americans that will directly benefit from our actions in Iraq. It is the people of that region whose lives will be saved by us. Do you honestly think that Saddam is not attempting to develop these weapons? Do you think that he would hesitate to use them against Israel or Iran or anyone else he doesn't like?

    I wish the world would wake up and smell the coffee. They would have us sit around and wait until it's too late, at which point they would come to us screaming for help. Well, we've done that already. Twice, at least. We ain't gonna do it again. We will stand up and do what's right for the world, whether they like us or thank us for it or not.

    If this causes more terror attacks on us, then so be it. Unlike the French and other sissy countries, we do not shy away from danger just because it might bring hardships upon us. Yes, we are concerned about terrorism, and for good reason. 9/11/01 was not something anyone should have to go through. But imagine how many more 9/11's there would be if we gave Saddam free reign. Not just in America; all over the Middle East, Europe, all over the world. These types of rogue states must be kept in check by the responsible countries of the world. The UN, by all rights, should be standing up and taking a firm stance. It's absolutely shameful that the UN refuses to come together. Once again, the European community would rather wait until it's too late, then wait for the USA to pull their asses out of the fire. But not this time.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 7024
    (2/22/03 9:10:06 pm)
    Reply Re: Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    20...you crack me up......do you have any ideals of your own?, or just CNN repeats and handwringer statements....
    Talk about eroded rights....your place of contact is famous for them.......like I said-you crack me up.


    LTS



    Fresh20
    Member
    Posts: 39
    (2/23/03 5:42:03 am)
    Reply Re: Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "However, I think you are making the same assumptions that the rest of the world is making. You are assuming that our plan to oust Saddam Hussein is based solely on a selfish attempt to protect ourselves from future terrorist attacks. Perhaps this is part of the plan, but it is a minor part."

    No, not at all..... I am sure that what is being done is with the best possible intentions, almost.
    I, and millions of people in the world fear your government, in its intentions and best interests will continue to impose its will on other nations (like it's doing on its CITIZENS) in the interests of ITS continued safety and security (and, I'm talking about YOUR GOVERNMENT, as opposed to you AMERICANS). Iraq under US lock & key - profits for US big business (who runs the oil companies?), your bank accounts under scrutiny, international policeman actions, 2nd Amendment rights, CIA involvement, everywhere, dept Homeland Security... (I & any of you could, and do add to this list regularly) I feel that they're almost viewed as the same issues - both international and domestic by the Federal Government.

    Do you have a government that was elected by a majority vote? (or, just nearly?)

    I do feel that the UN in its current form is ineffective, however it has to be the way of the future. It needs teeth & the will to use them. It needs to represent the whole world, not just those with agendas and power.
    I feel that the USA should not take on the role of the worlds policeman (or need to either). You don't need the enemies.


    LTS... Please, Fresh or H20 is good. Ummm, "Talk about eroded rights....your place of contact is famous for them......."
    Sorry, don't geddit. Please clarify. My place of contact? And, I do have ideals (along with hopes & wishes... yada yada). World peace, freedom from fear of others, prosperity, good hunting, shooting & fishing, happy trails to ride & Class five whitewater for all.


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 6343
    (2/23/03 10:45:30 am)
    Reply
    Re: Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    It is hell being on top isn't it.



    GOD BLESS AMERICA




    Ignorance is a crime in 49 states. In the other one it is bliss.




    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 7031
    (2/23/03 10:45:13 pm)
    Reply Re: Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sir Fresh20......since you support the UN and probably NATO too (?) though the second one matters little-either, this discussion is fruitless.

    LTS



    Fresh20
    Member
    Posts: 40
    (2/23/03 10:52:52 pm)
    Reply Re: Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Why would I care about NATO?


    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 1128
    (2/24/03 8:19:28 am)
    Reply Re: Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Do you have a government that was elected by a majority vote? (or, just nearly?)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    That is a tricky question. The short answer is yes. Both houses of Congress are elected from their respective states by majority votes. The President is elected not by majority vote, but by the Electoral College.

    As we saw in the 2000 vote, it is possible for a President to be elected without receiving the actual majority of the popular vote. This was put in place by the framers of our Constitution to ensure that the states with very high population densities (like New York) couldn't control the election. It is based on the exact same principle that determines how many Representatives each state has in the House of Representatives.

    Most non-Americans don't understand this. It is a strength, not a weakness, of our system.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    Fresh20
    Member
    Posts: 42
    (2/24/03 2:34:49 pm)
    Reply Re: Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Please explain this to me,
    Why does Bush want to go to Iraq and, in effect, go to war, without going to your representatives to ask for clearance?
    If he has the backing of the whole american people, why not put up or shut up?
    I'd have thought that a president elected under such shaky circumstances would want to be seen to be doing the right things by his public.
    This situation is waaaay different to the last major action in the gulf that the US was involved in.

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2142
    (2/24/03 4:05:29 pm)
    Reply Re: Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Well, let me put it this way -

    Congress DID give Pres. Bush the nod for going after Saddam shortly after 9/11 and Bush made his "Go Anywhere, Anytime and with Any Means" and Congress endorsed his measures. Ya see, not just Osama is a terrorist - SADDAM is also a terrorist, and I don't think under any other definition, you can dispute this fact.

    The last time, ol' Saddam invaded Kuwait and cut off our oil supply from them and also upset the whole MiddleEast equation. The whole world wanted his butt kicked for that action and it didn't take much to launch the military to send him and his henchmen packing.

    This time, we're sick and tired of the a$$hole thumbing his big nose at us and the rest of the world on doing the things he was mandated to do with his WMD when vanquished some 12 years ago. Appeasers have assured he has rebuilt his military, his WMD program and he has taken this to mean we really don't have the gumtion to face him down and make sure he complies with all those apparently silly UN resolutions.

    Maybe those of you in the rest of the world are content to allow the madman and his followers to continue to be a viable threat to the entire MiddleEast and to be in non-compliance of all mandated requirements to disarm. We'll once again correct a wrong while everyone else in the world community sits back on their hands and wallets and wails of injustice being done to poor ol' Saddam. Of course, once the situation is corrected, those of you in the world community will want to assure you get your share of the goodies, whatever they may be. Oh, and continue bashing the US for being the Big Bully.
    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"


    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 1130
    (2/25/03 1:24:07 pm)
    Reply Re: Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'd have thought that a president elected under such shaky circumstances would want to be seen to be doing the right things by his public.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    That sounds like something Clinton would do. Or Gore, if he had been elected. In fact, that's what they did while they were in office. That is exactly why we are in this situation today; because Clinton sat around in the Oval Office playing "hide the cigar" with Monica Lewinsky instead of taking care of business.

    Fortunately, Bush has the intestinal fortitude to stand up and do what's right, regardless of the naysayers. And I do believe he has the approval of the majority of Americans. But the President of the United States shouldn't be making decisions based on freakin' telephone polls. He is responsible for things that you and I cannot imagine. He is doing what needs to be done before it gets any worse.

    I heard an interview with Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee (Democrat) yesterday on the radio. She is one of the Congress-critters that was seeking an injunction against Bush going into Iraq. She admits that Congress gave Bush the power to do what he's doing, but she thinks they shouldn't have made that decision. Well, sorry lady.... I guess you should have thought of that before you voted, huh?
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    Fresh20
    Member
    Posts: 43
    (2/25/03 3:28:56 pm)
    Reply Re: Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Well, the number of people in this discussion has dropped pretty quickly..... Oh well.

    Sorry, I hope that America thinks a little more than it seems to & sits on its hands a little longer.

    Let the UN do its work & hopefully sense will prevail & Saddam Hussein will disappear (to play hide the cigar with OBL, into an unmarked hole in the ground, or wherever).

    I hope that the USA finds ways to get on with all those it's not seeing eye to eye with at present without resorting to FAEing their asses back to a condition that'll breed more radical nastys with nastier weapons prepared to do nastier things to you guys.

    ALL the best for the (somewhat shaky) future, eh?




    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2148
    (2/25/03 5:29:25 pm)
    Reply Re: Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'd agree with you wholeheartedly and hope military action is not required -

    HOWEVER - in the most optimistic circumstance, I cannot imagine Hussian prevailing to common sense and capitulating on the destruction of his WMD hardware or programs.

    As far as the UN doing it's work - it would be greatly appreciated if that angst body of handwringers and ash throwers WOULD get off their collective backsides and provide some meaningful, forceful directives to Iraq with "Cast in Concrete" timetables, to be absolutely followed up with military means to do the disarming at an early deadline date. The "walkthrough" inspections the Iraqi's are presently allowing the inspectors is such a joke, no one with a lick of common sense would call them investigations. The Iraqis are allowing them to see just exactly what the Iraqis want them to see and no more. There's hundreds of thousands of square miles of empty desert to burrow into and hide whatever they don't want seen by the UN. Even with the "inspection" of ONE of Saddam's palaces, there were still certain rooms or areas the inspector weren't allowed. The shell game continues with the master con man doing the shelling.


    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"


    Tac401
    Administrator
    Posts: 7053
    (2/25/03 11:44:46 pm)
    Reply
    Re: Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    O'l Tac could handle this thing couldn't he Folks!?


    Tac
    TFF VMBB Email Tac

    Mauser45
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 62
    (3/3/03 1:43:22 pm)
    Reply
    Re: Best Editorial
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    cointoss, that was an outstanding article. Thanks!

    fresh, i haven't read or heard of the muslims having any problems in this country due to their religion. They have been busy building Mosques all over this country. They have never had it so good and that is why they come here.
    Yes we do pollute our environment,and we could do more to improve that situation. We have far more pollution regulations than most of the world and no one else in the world pays to clean up our mess nor does anyone pay more to control pollution. We generate the most waste simply because we are still the most heavily industrialized nation in the world and that is one of the major reasons why this country is so strong! Now China and Mexico are becoming industrialized and they will have the same problems. They have virtually no pollution regulations and they will become bigger offenders than the US. as time goes on. We sell our products all over the world to the benefit of others.
    The United Nations is a joke! They have no authority of their own. They are trying to impose a world tax on all airline flights so that the will have the money to raise their own army, to be used as a "peacekeeping force". They have for many years tried to pass laws in the US that wil enable them to regulate how Americans raise their children. What clothes to wear, what the proper nutrition requirements will be, how you will properly dicipline your children, how they will be educated etc. World government telling you how to raise your children! The majority of the members of the UN. are communist/marxist countries and they are exactly the ones that hate us! The main goal of the UN is to become a world government. Whenever we have to deal with the UN, we end up picking up most of the tab. They can't be trusted and should be thrown out of this country.
    I hate to say it but there is no way to keep terrorists out of this country. Our borders are just to big to be effectively patrolled. Especially our northern borders. You could take a canoe back and forth across the ST. Laurence River, posing as a fisherman and no one would question you . You could backpack across the canadian border through the mountains of Minnisota, Montana, Idaho etc. and who would know? I do worry about our government getting too "carried away" with their anti-terrorist regulations, surveilance etc. We could easily lose our rights in the name of "safety."

    Love it or leave it!
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2003
Similar Threads
Forum Title Date
The Fire For Effect and Totally Politically Incorr Revenge on China ! The best Payback Ever ! Mar 21, 2014
The Fire For Effect and Totally Politically Incorr Cut and run politics at it's best Jan 5, 2014
The Fire For Effect and Totally Politically Incorr Watch Judge Jeanine at her very best.. Jul 29, 2013
The Fire For Effect and Totally Politically Incorr BEST SUMMATION OF BARACK AND MICHELLE OBAMA EVER‏ Mar 3, 2013
The Fire For Effect and Totally Politically Incorr Obama Rated 4th Best President Ever... Dec 29, 2012