Only in the Republic of Kalifornia

Discussion in 'The Fire For Effect and Totally Politically Incorr' started by Diamondback, Jun 1, 2011.

  1. Diamondback

    Diamondback Active Member

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    Emigrated to Oklahoma in '59. Thank you lord for my sanity.

    An apparently suicidal man waded into San Francisco Bay on Monday, stood up to his neck, and waited. As the man drowned, police, fire crews, and others watched idly from the shore.

    Why? Officials blamed a departmental policy, stemming from budget cuts, that prevented them from jumping in to save him.

    Fifty-year-old Raymond Zack spent nearly an hour in the water before drowning. A crowd of about 75 people, in addition to first responders, watched from the beach in Alameda across the bay from San Francisco as Zack inched farther and farther away, sometimes glancing back, a witness told the San Jose Mercury News. "The next thing he was floating face down."

    A volunteer eventually pulled Zack's lifeless body from the Bay.

    Mike D'Orazi of the Alameda Fire Department said that, due to 2009 budget cuts, his crews lacked the training and gear to enter the water. And a Coast Guard boat couldn't access the area because the water was too shallow.

    "The incident yesterday was deeply regrettable," D'Orazi said Tuesday. "But I can also see it from our firefighters' perspective. They're standing there wanting to do something, but they are handcuffed by policy at that point."

    Alameda Police Lt. Sean Lynch also suggested his men did the right thing. "He was engaged in a deliberate act of taking his own life," Lynch told the Mercury News. "We did not know whether he was violent, whether drugs were involved. It's not a situation of a typical rescue."

    But at a City Council hearing Tuesday night, some locals expressed outrage that Zack was left to die. "This just strikes me as not just a problem with funding, but a problem with the culture of what's going on in our city, that no one would take the time and help this drowning man," said one resident, Adam Gillitt.

    The city said it would spend up to $40,000 to certify 16 firefighters in land-based water rescues.

    One witness to the event told a local news station that Zack was looking at people on the shore. "We expected to see at some point that there would be a concern for him," said another.

    (Paul Sakuma/AP)
  2. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

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    they stood by and watched him drown , for a hour ?

    75 + people watched ... thats ####ed

    whats the bet it'll be on youtube ...
  3. Python

    Python Former Guest

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    Pathetic, to put it mildly.
  4. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

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    hey a outsider opinion

    i come to the US i go through LA ( if i cant get seattle ) as fast as possible ..
    i could not live there if ya paid me lot's

    i'd be locked up in days ( hours?)
  5. Juker

    Juker New Member

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    But in Kalifornia, if the first responders HAD rescued him, they'd probably have been sued for violating his right to take his own life.
  6. Double D

    Double D Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

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    There are many videos of people lying in the street after getting run down by a car and people walking by and staring at them and keep on going. This type of thing is common these days.
  7. jbmid1

    jbmid1 Well-Known Member

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    1. The first excuse is always, "there's not enough money in the budget"
    2. Was there nobody onsite with a boat, canoe, kayak, innertube or inflatable shark?
    3. Don't the rescue services have helicopters standing by on short notice if the water is unsuitable for the Coast Guard's boats? Did none of the firet responders have a radio?
    4. Exactly how much training and gear does it take to enter the water? I guess budget cuts prevented the police and fire departments from giving swim lessons to their non-swimmers.
    5. The intangibles can't be accounted for in a budget (courage, compassion, things like that).
  8. phil-this

    phil-this New Member

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    Forget saving the idiot. Suicide attempts are a criminal offense in most places. Could they not arrest him? If he was in the water firing a gun off at fish would the police not dive in and cuff his A@$ as soon as they could see him? Would budget restraints stop him from committing a class A felony in a pool? I'm pretty sure implied and written consent have no bearing on a suicide attempt. Did he have some DNR order signed and stapled to his chest?
  9. Artemus

    Artemus New Member

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    These type of things occur when common sense has been abandoned.
  10. Bobitis

    Bobitis Guest

    I'll throw out a different take on the matter.

    I know how to swim. Learned at 5-6 yrs old. That doesn't qualify me to be able to rescue someone bent on drowning themself.

    If you're not trained in the matter, the suicidal one could easily take you with him/her.

    Were it a someone truly in trouble, I 'might' have 2nd thoughts. If it were a family member, there would be no question. Some guy bent on offing himself? I don't think so.

    If it were some guy threatening to jump, would you get close enough to let him grab you?

    Just sayin...

    Shame on those that didn't educate/train the 1st responders. And shame on the Coast Guard for a really lame excuse. Neck deep seems deep enough for a lotta watercraft. Where was the Harbor Patrol?:confused:
  11. phil-this

    phil-this New Member

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    I took a lifeguard class when I was younger. I had to to work at the waterslide at the mini golf place I worked at in CA. They taught me how to save people and said I could save a drowning victim after 4 days 3 hours a day of training. I also had to take a separate "life saver" CPR and first aid class. 2 days for 3 hrs a day. I was told then that I was qualified to save someones life. I still would not have saved that guy. But the police could have use non-lethal force to incapacitate the dude then dragged him to shore and cuffed him. That's all I am sayin. He commited a crime.
  12. Willie

    Willie Active Member

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    I say if he really wanted to go....let him go. That is really what they did. Or they could have saved him,arrested or put him in a hospital or some thing else that we could all pay for.....or let the selfish idiot off himself. Suicide after all is the most selfish act we can do. Just hurts everyone else while the perp knows nothing. I do not feel sorry for him one bit. Bob,you make a real good point. Why should someone who wants to live die for someone who does not ?
  13. phil-this

    phil-this New Member

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    I agree fully. But I must say I would rather waste my taxpayer dollars on an idiot like him rather than keeping murderers alive on death row when .22 bullets are only 20 bucks per 500 rounds.
  14. Double D

    Double D Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

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    Suicide is a selfish act. If he had made up his mind to kill himself, saving him would most likely be prolonging the act. He would have carried it out another way.
  15. treniaL

    treniaL New Member

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    I was shocked the first time I heard the news about an individual died in frigid waters in San Francisco Monday as firefighters and around 75 spectators watched. The initial responders were strictly forbidden by law enforcement to attempt a rescue, which was deemed too unsafe in the freezing water. I found this here: Man drowns while police and firefighters stand watching, newstype.com. So sad how a lost soul's life was wasted because saving him in against the rules. Can't blame the firefighters they are just doing what they were told to do.
  16. Awtoman

    Awtoman Active Member

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    One of the things I like most about this place, besides guns, is that most of the time the thinking around here is generally "old school" or "old fashioned" when it comes to things like morals, honesty, courtesy, and taking care of you and yours. At 48, I was raised "old school", just before that line of thinking became obsolete. And yet, with all of us "old schoolers" here, I am just a little surprised at some of the answers here. It's not that I necessarily disagree with some of the posts here, it's that I don't remember, and can't envision, my father or my grandparents telling me about a story like this occuring during their times. The fact that it happened, and we (myself included) are not completely dumfounded that 75 people would stand around and watch a man drown, is a sad indicator of what direction society, and us along with it, have slid. We may be at the far right end of the current bubble, but the bubble is way out of place.

    Tom
  17. Buckshot

    Buckshot Active Member

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    Interesting debate on whether the man's intent should effect the outcome. Although first responders TYPICALLY do not stop to evaluate a rescue on that basis, I can easily see now, after the fact with the luxury of reflection, that my own desire to risk my life for someone might ENTIRELY change based on whether they were a helpless VICTIM (jump in without hesitation), or a moron attempting to harm themselves and very possibly if not intentionally take others with them. (Wave, come to attention, salute, go for pizza and ice cream.)

    Although it seems increasingly a limited time offer, this is still marginally a free country. If you are an ADULT (very important) and have no particular outstanding obligations (you are NOT a parent of minor children), and you want to leave the party early? So be it. But why don't you have the least consideration on your way out and make neat work of it. Do it somewhere private. Rent a boat, get away from the shore. Feed the fish.
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2011
  18. Juker

    Juker New Member

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    I keep trying to picture this scenario, and it's definitely one of those "you had to be there" situations.

    The man wasn't flailing around in the water; he was standing, apparently. So it wasn't a drowing scenario, wherein I'm hopeful the cops would have gone in without hesitation.

    If it's obvious someone is trying to drown themselves - which, admittedly, is a ridiculous way of taking one's own life - how would we know they hadn't decided to take someone with them if possible? Not many people are trained in "water fighting" - was there a thought that he might have a weapon on him in this death pact? If he wanted to drown himself, what would his reaction be to someone who attempted to bring him ashore? I'm sure a lot of questions were raised in that hour.

    This wasn't a drowning child, or someone in a burning car - this was a man with mental issues in a dangerous situation.

    We lose a lot of brave men and women every year who give up their lives to save others - but if someone has such little regard for their own life that they'd pull something like this, I have to say - sayonara, have a nice trip.
  19. lawdawg

    lawdawg Member

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    Not trying to be nitpicky, but there is no such thing as "non-lethal" force. All force is potentially lethal. Any "less-lethal" device or substance that could incapacitate a person enough that the police could subdue him and drag him to shore, would incapacitate him enough to drown him in neck-deep water. If the police had used such a device, such as a Taser, and he had drowned (and he almost certainly would have), then the police would be accused of his murder. There is a reason why police are trained to talk a suicidal person down in most circumstances, rather than forcibly rescue them. Most suicidal people don't care who they take with them. But I truly do not know of any device or substance that is available to law enforcement today that would work in a situation like this. I think Bobitis nailed it. Just another "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario.
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2011
  20. jim brady

    jim brady Well-Known Member

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    I'd bet that if there was REVENUE in it those city employees would have trampled each other rushing into the water. This really does point to the moral decay that's going on here and all over the world.

    A fine example is the spectators caught on camera reguarding the trial of that woman who's daughter was killed. Anyone else but me shocked by the horde of women and girls giggling and laughing as they scrambled to get seats for the trial? It was like a fun day at the circus. Never mind that a little girl - barley just past being a toddler - was butcherd and left to rot. Those females have no motherly or human compassion in them AT ALL.

    Jack - please don't judge America on what you see if you fly into Seattle, San Francisco or Los Angeles. Big cities do not reflect America - especially THOSE big cities. You want to find America, get away from the cities. Just as I doubt I'd find a REAL Austrailian if I waited all day on the steps of a Capitol building in your country - unless it was some poor soul going there to be judged by the authorities.
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2011
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