out of state transfers

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by goofy, May 7, 2012.

  1. goofy

    goofy Well-Known Member

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    I know this has been talked about before.
    Does anyone know the law # in the books about having to go through a FFL to transfer a gun from out of state?
    The reason I ask is a dealer in Tennessee got in touch with me because a costumer of mine bought a gun on line and the person selling it has no FFL so when I told his costumer he has to go to a local FFL dealer to send me the gun.His dealer called me and said that I was wrong and that the gun DID NOT have to go through a FFL. And that I could get it from anybody that a FFL was not necessary.
    I know this is wrong and when I was looking it up in the reg. book I could not find the law.I am sure it is there but I get lost in all the mumbo jumbo.
    I am sure you have to send a gun from a FFL to a FFL when going state to state.This is a federal law right?
    But ware is it in the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide ?
    This is a hand gun.
    Mike
    Last edited: May 7, 2012
  2. H-D

    H-D Active Member

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    From buds


    Overview This page provides information about Federal Laws, step that must be followed, and notes on using specific shippers when shipping firearms. This page is oriented toward you, the seller of a firearm.

    Shipping Legalities Federal Law requires that all modern firearms be shipped only to a holder of a valid Federal Firearms License (FFL). BudsBuysGuns.com will, as the receiver of the firearm(s), provide you with a copy of our FFL license upon request. The recipient of a shippedfirearm must have an FFL; however you, the sender, are not required to have one. Any person who is legally allowed to own a firearm is legally allowed to ship it to an FFL holder for any legal purpose(including sale or resale). Here is exactly what the ATF 'Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide' (ATF P 5300.4) says: (B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier? A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State.A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any packageindicating that it contains a firearm.

    [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

    (B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?[ A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifleto a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

    [18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

    'Antique' firearms need not be shipped to a licensed dealer. These can be shipped directly to the buyer. An antique firearm is a firearm built in or before1898,or a replica thereof. The exactATF definition of an antique firearm is: Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system)manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica (1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

    Knives, air guns, accessories, and most gun parts need not be shipped to an FFL holder. We say most gun parts because each firearm contains at least one part that the ATF considers a firearm. This part is typically the part that contains the serial number. This part must be treated as a complete firearm when shipping the item.

    Ammunition must be clearly identifiedas'SmallArmsAmmunition'on theoutsideof thebox.Some shippers treat ammunition as dangerous or hazardous materials.

    The section of the US Code that governs modern firearms is called Commerce in Firearms and Ammunition (CFA). Thiscode is available online at: http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/index.htm

    When in doubt, we suggest arranging fortransferthrougha licensed dealer. Violation of theCFAis a felony and penalties for violation of itaresevere.

    Federal and State Law Resources The Bureau of Alcohol,Tobacco,and Firearms (ATF) has a very comprehensivesite containing information about the various Federal and state laws regulating firearms. Please refer to the ATF information for legal questions regarding firearms. ATF Home page: http://www.atf.gov ATF Compilation of the various statelaws: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/statelaws/22edition.htm ATF Firearms Division Main Page: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/index.htm

    Shipment by Unlicensed Persons Any shipper who does not have a Federal Firearms License (FFL) is considered to bean'unlicensed person'. This section contains information on how unlicensed persons can ship firearms. If you have an FFL, please skip to the next section for shipping suggestions. The most important thing to know is that you must only ship guns to a licensee. If the buyer is not a licensed dealer, he will haveto makearrangementswith a dealerin hisstate to ship the item to.

    Before you ship a gun, the buyer must fax or mail you a copy of the licensee's signed FFL license. You can only ship the gun to the address on the license. You must inform the carrier that the package contains a firearm. Of course, the firearm cannot be shipped loaded; ammunition may not be shipped in the same box. You should take the copy of the signed FFL with you when you take the item to be shipped in case the shipper wishes to see it.

    Notes on specific shippers:

    US Mail: An unlicensed person can ship a rifleor shotgun by US Mail. Unlicensed personscannot ship a handgun by US Mail. Postal regulationsallow thePostOfficeto open yourpackageforinspection. Ammunition cannot be shippedby US Mail. You can search theUS PostOffer Postal Explorersite for specific USPS regulations regarding firearmsand ammunition.

    FedEx: FedEx will only ship firearmsviatheir PriorityOvernight service. Ammunition must beshippedas dangerous goods.

    UPS: UPS will accept handgun shipments by Next Day Air only. Rifles and shotguns can be shipped by UPS ground service. UPS will acceptshipments of ammunition. Most other shippers will no longer accept firearm shipments. Airborne and Roadway have specifically prohibited firearm shipments.

    Shipment by Licensed Persons Any shipper who has a Federal Firearms License (FFL) is considered to be a 'licensed person'. This section contains information on how licensed persons can ship firearms. Ifyou do not haveanFFL,pleasesee the previous section of this page for for shipping instructions. Since licensed persons are responsible for knowing the law, we are going to assume that you already understand the CGA and know the applicable Federal, state, and local laws.

    Notes on specific shippers:

    US Mail: Licensed manufacturers, dealers, or importers may ship a rifle, shotguns, or handguns by US Mail. In fact, we suggest that you use the USPS as it is now the most cost-effective way to ship a handgun. To ship a rifle or shotgun, you need only inform the Post Office that the packagecontains a firearm. A licensed manufacturer, dealer, or importer can ship a handgun</> via the US Post Office if the licensed dealer fills out a US Post OfficeForm PS 1508 and files it with the local Post Office branch where the handgun is to be shipped. You can search the US Post Offer Postal Explorer site for specific USPS regulations regarding firearmsand ammunition.

    FedEx: FedEx will only ship firearmsviatheir PriorityOvernight service. Ammunition must beshippedas dangerous goods. NSSF members can sign up for a discount of up to 26% on FedEx shipments.

    UPS: UPS will accept handgun shipments by Next Day Air only. Rifles and shotguns can be shipped by UPS ground service. UPS will acceptshipments of ammunition.

    Most other shippers will no longeracceptfirearm shipments. Airborneand Roadwayhavespecifically prohibited firearm shipments.

    Notes on USPS Firearm Regulations We recommend that you read the Post Office regulations on Other Restricted or Nonmailable Matter before shipping a firearm through the US Mail. The following info comes from the USPS Regulation DMM Issue 54, January 10, 1999, section C-024

    Page C-39, section 3.0, Riflesand Shotguns: "Although unloaded rifles and shotguns not precluded by 1.1e and 1.2 are mailable, mailers must comply with the Gun Control Act or 1968, Public Law 90-618, 18 USC 921, et seq., and the rules and regulations promulgated thereunder, 27 CFR 178, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by 1.1e."

    Page C-39, section 6.0, PROHIBITED PARCEL MARKING: "For any parcel containing a firearm or a ballistic or switchblade knife, any marking that indicates the contents is not permitted on the outside wrapper or container."

    The following pertains only to licensed dealersshipping handguns:

    Page C-37, section 1.3, Authorized Persons: "Subject to 1.4, handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms,a licensed dealerof firearms,or anauthorized agent of the federal government......."

    Page C-38, section 1.5, Manufacturers and Dealers: "Handguns may also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearmsand licensed dealersof firearmsin customary trade shipments, or for repairing or replacing parts."

    Page C-38, section 1.6, Certificate of Manufacturers and Dealers: "Alicensed manufactureror dealer need not file the affidavit under 1.4, but must file with the postmaster a statement on Form 1508 signed by the mailer that he or she is a licensed manufactureror dealerof firearms, that the parcels containing handguns (or major components thereof) are customary trade shipments or contain such articles for repairing or replacing parts, and that to the best of his or her knowledge or belief the addressees are licensed manufacturers or dealers of firearms."
  3. pickenup

    pickenup New Member

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    What H-D said.
    The shorter version. LOL

    Wrong.
    For a "basic" transfer, for "basic" firearm. Anyone can send the firearm, does NOT have to be FROM an FFL, but it must go TO an FFL in another state. to be transferred to the buyer.

    FFL's can make up ANY rules they want, when it comes to who they will accept a firearm from. "They" can require it to come from another FFL, but it is not the law.
  4. mogunner

    mogunner Active Member

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    Some do want a copy of the sender's driver's license, which I think shouldn't be a big problem to most people.
  5. goofy

    goofy Well-Known Member

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    H-D Thanks great post!!!
    That answers that.
    I normal do not handle the gun sales but my partner is not around (he was put onto day shift)And I have not handled a out of state transfer So I was going by what he has set up for the rules of the shop. I was under the impression that a pistol HAD to come from a FFL for me to except it. And when the person who is selling the gun asked for my FFL(He does not have one)I did not think sending my FFL was a good idea unless it was being sent to a FFL.
    When I talked( I called him to get the answer)to my partner I was told to look it up that it "was right there in the book" and when I could not find it I knew people here would have the answer.
    Better safe then sorry!!
    I know:eek: after 9 years of doing this I should have known the answer.
    But I spend 99.9% of my time hiding in the back doing smith work so this counter work is not my strong point.I have no problems with the in store sales.But we do not transfer out of state guns that often(This being my first)
    So I was going by the shop rules and that says that a gun coming from out of state has to come from a FFL.
    So listening to him made me look like a fool(again)
    I would rather be fixing guns then selling them. This is a pain in the ***
    But thanks for setting me straight :eek:
    Pickenup what do you mean by "Basic" firearm?

    Well trever called me(my partner) while I was typing this and I told him what was said here he said that that is not what ATF told him so I told him to "Look it up it's right there in the book":p
    He said "Whatever" That is the shop rules.

    I just want to stay in the back and do smithing:mad:
    Thanks again for your help
    Mike
    Last edited: May 8, 2012
  6. pickenup

    pickenup New Member

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    There are a few firearms that fall under their own rules, such as Class III ones. With them, you have to submit an Application for Transfer and Registration of Firearm (Form 4) to the BATF BEFORE any transfer can take place.

    Then, as stated in H-D's post, there are "antiques" which can be shipped direct to the buyer. Depending on local laws, of course. Etc. etc.

    Knowing your local laws, is just as important as knowing Federal ones, if you want to CYA every time.

    Speaking of CYA. Like I said, anyone can "make up" their own rules, as it appears your partner has done. He (or you) could make up a rule that any buyer/seller has to be dressed in a clown suit. Your shop, your rules.

    Consider, when a person walks in off the street, and sells you a firearm so that you can re-sell it in your shop, is it coming from an FFL? If someone puts a firearm in your shop on consignment, is it coming from an FFL? Or do you take the information off of their drivers license and put that in the bound book?

    If someone sends you a copy of a DL from out of state, what guarantee is there that it is his, or could it be fake? What is to stop the person standing at your counter from having a fake one as well? Each shop owner has to decide for himself, what rules he wants to "make up" to feel comfortable. Just don't pass it off as "THE LAW"

    Hope you can get back in the back where you can do your smith'n, without dealing with all the counter stuff. ;):D
  7. goofy

    goofy Well-Known Member

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    After the help I got here and reading it over and over I do understand so again.
    Thanks:)
    Mike
  8. 68c15

    68c15 Well-Known Member

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    after reading all that I think I would rather have it come from a FFL just to be safe. if the buyer or seller don't like it they can explore alternate yet legal methods. no use in risking stepping on the toes of the guys who can come in and shut you down
  9. bluesea112

    bluesea112 Active Member

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    I learned something knew. I didn't realize I could mail a rifle or shotgun directly to another individual in my own state without going through an FFL.
    That is good to know.
    Last edited: May 9, 2012
  10. bluesea112

    bluesea112 Active Member

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    Sounds to me like you are being a little bit lazy and not wanting to make the effort to learn how to do your job correctly. You are essentially dreaming up a new law that has never existed. As long as you are adding your own requirements to the law, why not require finger prints, passport photos and a 7 day waiting period to make absolutely sure nobody does business with you again. That way you would not have to worry about the ATF ever hassling you.
    Last edited: May 9, 2012
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