P O'd a bunch of guys...

Discussion in 'Centerfire Pistols & Revolvers' started by oneshot onekill, Jul 16, 2010.

  1. oneshot onekill

    oneshot onekill New Member

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    Last night I was at a gathering of fellow Christian Men at a monthly thing we do called "Holy Smokes". We get together and smoke cigars and talk about everything from guns to politics to what's going on in your life... Mostly guns. Last night one of the guys said he had a Colt pistol that had NO serial numbers on it anywhere. He said he bought it from a dealer in California in the late 80's or early 90's and was curious about it. He called it a 38 Caliber Special Army Model and said it never had a serial number. Wanted to know if anyone was familiar with that model. I guess in the interest of being polite or just not knowing, everyone said it sounded "cool" and "it must be pretty old to not have a serial number"........

    I just couldn't act that naive! I told him: "Hmmm... That doesn't sound very likely. I don't doubt it doesn't have a serial number but Every Colt that was ever manufactured, unless it was a prototype or a special one-off model made for a President or something, was given a serial number... PERIOD! It's Federal Law! Especially 'Military' models. The serial number was removed at some point and that gun is not something you want BATFE to know about. I'd chop it up if it were mine. If it truly has no serial number it's nothing but trouble". The whole bunch of guys jumped all over me and said things like: "How do you know that?" "It could be a special model they made. You can't possibly know what he has." Someone even said he saw a really old cap-and-ball Colt that was too old to have a serial number. The guy that owns the gun said he had to "register it with the County he lived in and no one there questioned it. So what makes me think that I know more than they do?"

    They were all about doubting what I was telling them... And it seemed to be for three reasons. First, because I'm quite a bit younger than all of them. Second, because one of the guys there is supposedly the "foremost firearms expert" that any of them know and he said it could be legit. And third, because the guy that owns the gun is a retired Federal Justice Department Employee (although I don't know what he did for them. Could have been an I.T. guy or a Janitor for all I know).

    Anyway, I just wanted to vent about that and ask: How should i have handled that? I felt it was my duty as a fellow Christian to let him know he had something that could get him in trouble. Now I feel like the whole group thinks I don't know what I'm talking about... Oh well...

    End of rant!
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2010
  2. oscarmayer

    oscarmayer New Member

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    Re: PO'd a bunch of guys...

    i think i would of handled it this way. " very interesting you might have a one of a kind, why not bring it by and we could take a few pictures to post them on a few gun forums and see what you have" to my knowledge colt put serial numbers on most everything" or you could of confronted him and said i respectfully disagree and perhaps you're full of s*** :D
  3. jim brady

    jim brady Well-Known Member

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    Re: PO'd a bunch of guys...

    Sounds to me like you handled it as well as it could have been done. You say you are a younger man. Well, I am an older man, and I've seen a bunch of older men - including myself - who have been wrong many times.

    I am in total agreement with you concerning that pistol. Every pistol issued by the Army during and since the Civil War has had serial numbers. That is how the Army keeps track of it's property.

    Even prototypes usually have serial numbers to allow the arms maker to keep track of what gun did what in tests and evaluations. Not always, but 99.9% of the time. If the guy has a pistol without serial numbers, the odds are that 1.) they were ground-off, or 2.) he doesn't know where to look for them.

    There are a bunch of experts out there. If a guy works washing windows at NASA he is likely a rocket scientist in his circle of friends. There are likely a lot of smart window washers out there, too. You did well. You presented the facts as you saw them, so now just let it pass. Not worth argueing over anyway.
  4. mikld

    mikld Active Member

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    Re: PO'd a bunch of guys...

    First, "Holy Smokes" sounds like a really cool get together. I think the "elder statesmen" of the group may have their minds made up in certain directions and introducing a new fact or idea may be difficult. I would just smile and say "OK", because it would cause too much trouble to conveince them otherwise and it ain't no big deal anyway.
  5. JLA

    JLA Well-Known Member

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    Re: PO'd a bunch of guys...

    I would take facts to back your reasoning up with you to the next meeting. Google is your friend and the printer puts google on paper;)

    BTW. I get the being younger in a group of older men part. I am 26, been a certified gunsmith for 6 years and avid reloader for 5 years. I love firearms history and go out of my way to gather the facts. Sometimes you just run into a group of old farts that refuse to accept a kid knows more than they do about something. I still get 'old farts' in the gunshop that think the difference in 150 grain 30-06 loading and 180 grain .30-06 loading is the amount of powder its charged with, and you just cant convince em otherwise:eek:
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2010
  6. woolleyworm

    woolleyworm Active Member

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    Re: PO'd a bunch of guys...

    One point to highlight though - There are many guns out there withOUT a serial number. It is Federal law Now, but was not the case 50 yrs ago. Gun Control Act - 1968. That being said, I have never heard of a COLT that didn't have a serial number. I would tend to think that the gun is a replica or just a good ole' fake. They were making fake colts not too long after Samuel made his first ones. It would behove your group to wisen up, take a good look at determining what it really is and make a "group project" out of it. I think it would be cool to post up here and we could all learn something from it.

    As far as how you handled it, I think you did ok. I usually will just let things like that mellow out until I have some proof and get my ducks in a row before I confront it. I definetly think that it's worth looking into and discussing.

    Keep us posted, I'm probably not the only one that is a little curious on the outcome.
  7. oneshot onekill

    oneshot onekill New Member

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    Re: PO'd a bunch of guys...

    I'm hoping to see the gun some time.
    But other than that, it was a little frustrating when even the guys that I'm pretty close to and that know me fairly well backed away from me while I was trying to explain and then later questioned my knowledge as well...

    And mikld, yes, it's a pretty cool group for the most part. And it's refreshing to be able to fellowship with a bunch of guys who aren't commenting on every young or attractive woman who walks by or how "wasted" they got last night.
  8. lawdawg

    lawdawg Member

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    Re: PO'd a bunch of guys...

    Any of you that are familiar with the "John-Boy and Billy Big Show", a syndicated radio show based out of North Carolina and plays on a lot of classic-rock radio stations down South, there is an old retired military general that comes on there quite often and is known as "General Sadler", or something like that. Anyway, a couple of years or so ago, he was talking about how when he was in the military (many years prior), he and a buddy came across a bunch of 1911's that were still new, un-issued, in the box, and did not have serial numbers. Now, this is an old man talking on a radio show and I can not verify his story, but he sounded credible. The guns were not the main subject of whatever story he was telling, and added as a sidestory, and I do not remember if they were sent from the factory as a mistake. I had completely forgotton that story until I read your thread, but it may be worth some research to see if there are any old military guns issued without serial numbers.
  9. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    Re: PO'd a bunch of guys...

    1. A truly good Christian would not use profanity in his Subject line.

    2. Colt Army Specials have serial numbers, though not on the butt where most folks look. The serial number is on the frame under the crane and on the crane, the same places S&W put an assembly number.

    3. In spite of the name, the Colt Army Special was never adopted or used by any branch of any armed forces, either in the U.S. or elsewhere.

    Jim
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2010
  10. Marlin T

    Marlin T Active Member

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    Re: PO'd a bunch of guys...

    Speaking of 'fakes', I wonder if it has a made in Pakistan stamp on it, or should?

    It sounds like you handled the situation just fine.
    Your justice dept friend should have know that all serials are basically forever and can be read with the right equipment even if you can't see it with your eyes.
  11. graehaven

    graehaven Well-Known Member

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    Re: PO'd a bunch of guys...

    None of us are "truly good" anyway (Rom. 3:12).

    "PO"D" is not profanity. Crude maybe, but not profane. :eek::rolleyes::D
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2010
  12. Big Shrek

    Big Shrek Well-Known Member

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    Telling someone this, "I'd chop it up if it were mine." about an old gun will draw more heat & fire than a trip to Hades.

    That was a truly bad idea.
  13. Alpo

    Alpo Well-Known Member

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    I would have ignored it. I guess having a brother-in-law, for ten years, that would spew stupidity whenever he opened his mouth got me used to letting it slide.
  14. fleetwood1976

    fleetwood1976 Active Member

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    "Holy Smokes?" Thats got to be a catholic function.
  15. Old Grump

    Old Grump New Member

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    Well I don't know much but google tells me they started making 38 Caliber Special Army Models in 1899 and that colt was putting serial numbers on their revolvers in 1873. I would have backed you up in that discussion and I don't think I would have been the youngest guy there either. It would be interesting to get the model number of that gun. I wouldn't chop it up though, if it was obtained legally and there is no record of a gun like it wanted for any crime he will be okay. Just don't lose the paperwork if any for that gun.
  16. oneshot onekill

    oneshot onekill New Member

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    Re: PO'd a bunch of guys...

    Hmmm... Not quite sure what you mean by "Good Christian" Jim. To my knowledge: (Rom. 3:23) "all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God". But you're right. I could have used a less "Worldly" term. That was just one of the many sins I'm sure I committed that day so thanks for pointing it out so I won't forget to ask for forgiveness for it.

    Anyway, your knowledge, as always, far surpasses mine and I will certainly pass it along to the owner of the pistol the next time I see him.
  17. oneshot onekill

    oneshot onekill New Member

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    Re: PO'd a bunch of guys...

    It's an interesting story but there are some things that make that a little hard to believe. To my knowledge, the serial numbers were entered into some sort of log book or manifest as the pistols were boxed up. Also they are serialized before they are blued and "Final Inspected" and it's hard to imagine that would get missed on a whole box of 1911's before they left the factory. I'm sure it could be true though. Stranger things have happened.

    The guy that has this gun said that the Dealer he bought it from in California... (Peoples Republic of California to many gun owners) told him there was no serial number on his gun because it was a "Special Army" model. I guess I didn't convey that in the OP. What I found really puzzling was that he had to register it in (I believe) San Diego County and no one questioned it there.
  18. fleetwood1976

    fleetwood1976 Active Member

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    Re: PO'd a bunch of guys...

    (Rom. 3:23) "all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God".


    I don't think it means you have free license to sin the the rest of your life. As good christians we should strive to be more like jesus. I guess I am the only one here that finds a church function that involves smoking cigars is a direct slap in the saviors face. A church fellowship is about lifting god and each other up. I find it amazing if not stunning. I guess I am the wierd one.
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2010
  19. Shooter45

    Shooter45 *Administrator* Staff Member

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    Focus on the topic or this thread will be deleted.
    Thanks.
  20. Alpo

    Alpo Well-Known Member

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    Re: PO'd a bunch of guys...

    Well, maybe - just maybe - there might be something to that. I have heard, for years, that OSS/CIA/OSI/whoever would get various and sundry guns made without serial numbers. Without any markings at all, for that matter. For covert operations. Gives "plausible deniability". It might look like a Colt 1911, but there are no markings on it to say it is a Colt 1911. That kind of thing.

    I just want to know how they registered it, without it having a number. Needs to be some type of number, otherwise they were wasting their time. "John Smith has a gun." :confused: Yeah, that's a good registration.

    Guy I was working with, back in 1980, told me he was in Nam, early on. Green Beret, when they were working for the CIA. :rolleyes: Said he was issued an assassination gun. Single-shot 20 gauge shotgun. Looked like a Browning Hi Power. No markings on it. Make your hit, stick it in your holster and walk off. No one would think anything about it. They'd be looking for someone with a shotgun, and you were obviously carrying a pistol. Later, dump it in the river. He didn't dump it. :rolleyes::cool:

    So, I nodded wisely, and said, "Uhh huh", and tried not to let him see how much BS I thought that story was. Apparently I did not conceal my thoughts well enough. Next day he brought it to work. Damn. :D:eek: I don't think I'd like to shoot it, but it would sure be cool to have.
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