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PLASTIC PISTOL OWNERS - ALERT!!!!! ( 1 2 3 )

Discussion in 'Informational & Technical Archives' started by ruffitt, Feb 24, 2003.

  1. ruffitt

    ruffitt *TFF Admin Staff* In Heaven Now

    Joined:
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    Sparta, MI / Now In Heaven Also
    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 384
    (3/18/02 9:31:40 pm)
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    We've had two (2) Tupperware pistols come unglued at the gun range this past week. Both were Glock .45 ACP's that the shooters were firing with lead slug reloads. Catastrophic failure of firearms resulted in personal injury to both shooters. Pieces of plastic were embedded in severe cuts and lesions to the shooting hand. Magazines were blown from frames, frames blown out, bolts and carriers bulged - springs and plastic all over the bench and general area. A word to the wise should be sufficient.

    Long live steel handguns!!!

    Zigzag2
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2656
    (3/18/02 9:35:08 pm)
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    I hate when that happens...

    My experience was with a NEW Walther TPH22...

    AGunguy
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 1553
    (3/18/02 9:47:47 pm)
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    All those Glock guys raving about how great their plastic wonders are...nothing beats steel...all steel...blue steel.

    If I was carrying a Glock as a duty weapon, I think about handgrenade.

    GG

    Zigzag2
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2658
    (3/18/02 10:27:06 pm)
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    I knew there was a reason I never cared for GLOCKS

    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 2838
    (3/18/02 10:28:40 pm)
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    I saw one of them plastic no safety Glock gun things go off in a holster that was sitting on the front seat of a pickup. The was not a human touching it.

    I think I will stay away from them.

    Donny Henry
    Member
    Posts: 29
    (3/18/02 10:29:01 pm)
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    I dont remember exactly where I got my information, but I hadn't been into reloading a week before I learned not to reload for a Glock...Slides being blown off, or to pieces is happening quite often I gather. I tend to build light or subsonic rounds for shooting paper, so I wonder if it would really matter, I suspect these fellas are making up some hot loads.
    ~-~Courage is not the lack of fear...
    but the presence of faith.~-~


    Chief 101
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 87
    (3/18/02 10:47:08 pm)
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    Glock rifling is polygonal(?) instead of sharp lands and groves they are kinda rounded. Lead bullets clog up this type and that causes pressures to go thru the roof, or should I say frame? All the guys around here that want to shoot glocks with led bullets buy an aftermarket barrel with conventional rifling.

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 4238
    (3/18/02 10:48:03 pm)
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    The Glock is designed to shoot "JACKETED" bullets only. Glocks use a different rifling, the newer ones are different but labeled, read the operators manual....DOOH!
    T.F.F.

    MO JENKINS
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 155
    (3/18/02 10:58:20 pm)
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    I'll say it again, 40 Hudson, Zippo lighter, 1911! Certain designs are the peak of practical efficiency and durability for any given task. Emission controls, electronic ignition, plastic handguns.......WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!! Is a Glock(in V.G. condition) an effective weapon, YES! Is it a robust and reliable design that will withstand severe abuse and "the test of time"? NO WAY, PAL!
    "I guess it's good enough for the average COP"-Jeff Cooper
    If there's a Heaven, J.M.B. is in it! And he's lookin' down here and he SHUDDERS every time someone starts runnin' their mouth about the "SUPERIORITY" of a plastic gun.
    Your Buddy,
    MO JENKINS

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3091
    (3/18/02 10:58:42 pm)
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    ...or using a Dillon with the manual powder dump and going too fast when reloading...

    All it takes is to miss one, and without powder the primer will stick it in the barrel, and the guy during the string clears the "malfunction" as trained , clears the empty that didn't cycle the slide and in the process, jacks in a new round and pull the trigger without checking the barrel...I've seen it happen...but never a gun blow, usually the Dillon guys ALL had it happen to them once and knew to check, as well as carry a dowel rod with them...

    But a guy shooting another guys reloads is another story...

    And a jacketed reload WILL get pushed all the way out of the barrel by the just the primer, USUALLY and fall right to the ground...(THAT looks funny as hell when it happens, saw it happen ONCE... ) but a lead bullet WILL stick...

    I was present at a match one time getting ready to shoot the next relay and observed a guy in the relay ahead of me, during a stage, pull the trigger, "nothing happened," he jacks the slide, pulls the trigger, AGAIN nothing, he jacks the slide again...and by this time the range officer saw what was happening starts yelling "CEASE FIRE" before he pulled again...

    The dufus had TWO bullets stuck in the barrel...after they were driven out, the RO had him fire the round that was in the chamber ready to go and it fired...I hate to think what would have happened to him if that second round was not a dud also...it was a Colt, but still wouldn't have been pretty.

    He was shooting reloads his buddy had loadied for him on HIS Dillon...

    During my IPSC days in the mid 80s that was the running joke on the range....

    "How do you tell the Dillon Users on the line?"

    The ones in the middle of a relay yelling...
    "ANYBODY GOT A DOWEL ROD AND A HAMMER????"





    I wonder if both guys WERE shooting from the same batch of reloads?



    Did they ever find out for sure what happened?



    "Don't hear him call you an @sshole, hear WHY he's calling you an @sshole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 386
    (3/18/02 11:22:39 pm)
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    Too recent to have all the findings yet, Mike -

    I witnessed the one last Wednesday. Guy was shooting commercial remanufactured loads with black coated lead bullets (looked like the same stuff as on the Winchester/Nosler bullets). Understand the guy Sunday was using his own rolled loads.

    Had a guy do the squib load thing today at the range, shooting a Ruger Blackhawk .44 Mag. Only thing, the squib came in a box of commercial jacketed bullet loads! The next chamber went off OK, bulged the barrel slightly where the air was trapped between the bullets, knocked the front sight off, then both slugs cleared the muzzle and hit the target at 15 yds. Last one was keyholed! We convinced him not to shoot it any more and to take it to a gunsmith to have checked out.

    Ruger makes strong guns!!!

    AGunguy
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 1558
    (3/18/02 11:25:18 pm)
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    Is someone casting aspersions at Dillon again, must be one of those Lee guys.

    GG

    loader44
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 155
    (3/19/02 11:29:14 am)
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    Last year, when my wife finally got into shooting, I started reloading 38spec for her. I got into a big hurry trying to load 1500rds so she could shoot all day and get used to the weapon.

    Like I said " I GOT INTO A BIG HURRY ", BIG MISTAKE.

    I then had to take apart all the rounds to see wich ones were good and wich were bad. But this also gave me an idea. While I was in the military, we were taught what a " POP AND NO-KICK " was. This became a good opertunity to show my wife and kids what can happen when you dont get enough powder in the round.

    Like I said before, I got into a hurry, and there is NO REASON to get in a hurry when reloading, I knew this but did it anyhow.

    My wife and kids now know what it feels like to have a SQUIB LOAD, they know to STOP, wait, unload, and do a check of the bore, before shooting anymore.

    I know I ramble most times on these subjects, but I like to add my TCW, as for the racking of the slide when the gun doesnt go off without a visual check, IMHO, only a fool wood do such a thing.

    loader44.

    Alphamale
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 746
    (3/19/02 12:32:44 pm)
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    Glocks and lead bullets are a no no. If people would learn that, there wouldn't be problems. I think a reason you see alot about glock kbs is because there are so many of them around, and with the internet you can get info on it a lot quicker than at any time in the past.

    It's like with cars, they say no use leaded gas, no use leaded gas. Glock says no use leaded bullets, no use leaded bullets.
    Pardon me while I burst into flames. I've had enough of the world and its people's mindless games---Incubus

    bondai
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1454
    (3/19/02 12:50:31 pm)
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    Info...


    www.glockmeister.com/failure.html






    Zigzag2
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2667
    (3/19/02 1:24:30 pm)
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    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3092
    (3/19/02 3:16:15 pm)
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    I dunno, Glock has been around since 1992 and he says as a reason that there are so many reports of Glock failure is "that there are so many AROUND?!?!?!?!" Bullsh!t. TEN freakin years in firearms development is still "experimental." And the experiment isn't looking so good....

    Are reloaders any sloppier today, or have worse equipment or technique than they did 20-30-40 years ago????

    Have reloaders used LEAD bullets with NO problems for that same time, or hell, for CENTURIES?????

    Can you say, "Design Flaw????"

    I guess the worst that will come out of this, I would have to guess Glock will lose so much from the lawsuits soon to be coming that they will soon be out of business. And I don't care if Glocks go away, as much as I HATE the fact we'll set a legal precedent by having such a large manufacturer successfully sued. And while I'm not sure it is happening yet, I think I can safely say, it WILL.

    THIS suit will be different, too...not just an isolated case that will be satisfied by a warning on the barrel like Ruger settled with. Class Action written all over it. And just GUESS what "proven" design it will be compared to in court to prove the design flaw?

    During my IPSC days, when EVERYBODY used a 1911 or clone, and EVERYBODY reloaded with lead and various controls, you simply DID NOT hear of "catastrophic failures" as much as you do now with Glocks...

    And how many Glocks have been fired 25-50-100K rounds ROUTINELY so far???? (RELOADS!) NOT just in "mythical" "Government tests" but in EVERYDAY use by EVERYDAY competitors??????

    Doesn't ANYBODY think it strange that in over 100 years of automatic pistol use and development, NOW we have to come up with a new name for "catastrphic failure?????"

    "KaBoom" my @SS! "GB" is more like it..."GlockBoom."

    Reading that Glock Apologist made me think that Shakespeare had it right...."Methinks thou protestest too much..."

    Give me a 100 year old proven design that will NOT imbed plastic in my epidermis or forehead any day of the week...




    Question of the day:

    How many of TODAY'S Glocks do you guess will be AROUND in 2092? (Much LESS in service...)



    "Don't hear him call you an @sshole, hear WHY he's calling you an @sshole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    Edited by: polishshooter at: 3/19/02 3:28:52 pm

    bondai
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1455
    (3/19/02 3:34:09 pm)
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    Roll the dice and take your chances.....I would welcome any documented evidence of like failures in either Colt semi automatic pistols, Springfield, Kimber. Charles Daley..any examples of design flaws. That IS what is causing these failures, design flaws. Glock is not going to admit that and neither are all the LEO agencies that bought this plastic POS.

    John Q consumer is going to lose a finger or an eye or something else one of these days and it will all come out in the open. If I wrote a letter to any Anti Gun liberal group and presented this evidence, what do you think would happen.

    communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/glock/gz-glock-kb.html

    communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/glock/gz-kb-letter.html

    communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/glock/gz-g21kb.html

    communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/glock/gz-g30kb.html

    communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/glock/gz-g2-kb.html

    communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/glock/gz-g35-40kb.html







    Edited by: bondai at: 3/19/02 3:43:29 pm

    AGunguy
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 1562
    (3/19/02 4:22:30 pm)
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    I'm going ask a silly question, but what country is that Glock design from? Is it from one of our old enemies of WW-2...trying to get even with us.

    GG

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3094
    (3/19/02 6:00:12 pm)
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    MY GOD. What unMITIGATED Bullsh!t!

    RELOADS are not the problem. If a gun will NOT accept reloads, it's a flawed design to BEGIN with, Case CLOSED.

    #1 You CANNOT become a good pistol shooter without extensive practice, sometimes as much as 1000 rounds/month, and with some competitors, 1000 rds or more a WEEK.


    #2 You CANNOT AFFORD to shoot THAT much without reloading, or at least shooting reloads, PERIOD. (Unless of course, your shooting is subsidized, or you are independently wealthy.)

    #3 Many OTHER firearm designs have been used extensively with reloads of questionable parentage with NEVER a problem.


    Therefore, the Glock is worthless as both a carry, practice, or practical design.

    CASE CLOSED.

    I've loaded some cases upwords of 25-? times...with full house IPSC loads...load them until they crack.

    Mostly WCC military, but a polyglot of range pick ups for practice...NEVER an issue with a 1911...

    YES I've heard of several and knew one guy supposedly who "blew" a 1911...but it and all the others was a Super loaded to "push" major, grossly overpressure and the guy knew it...it was never intended to handle that pressure...but he was NOT hurt...the gun stayed together!

    BUT...one of the selling points of a .45ACP is that it is a LOW PRESSURE round to begin with...getting that many blow ups with an ACP is simply a problem with the firearm...then coupled with the fact SOME are with factory rounds...


    We all know that low tire pressure, and/or defective tires can cause blow outs...

    Blow outs at high speed can cause the driver to lose control and maybe even flip over...

    BUT we knew that since pneumatic tires were first used on vehichles...

    When 95% of the cases are suddenly happening on the Ford Explorer, ANY person with common sense KNEW something was wrong with the EXPLORER...


    Same deal here...all those trying to blame reloads are ALL wet...reloads have been used for DECADES without a statistically insignificant fraction of the number of these problems that have happened to GLocks...and many people will tell you GOOD reloads are BETTER than factory ammo...any firearm that says NO RELOADS should be suspect from the get-go...

    And from these pictures, if ANYBODY buys a Glock now, you should have your head examined....

    Reloads, or lead, are NOT the issue...face it Glockies...you have a TURKEY on (in?) your hands....



    "Don't hear him call you an @sshole, hear WHY he's calling you an @sshole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    Chief 101
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 90
    (3/19/02 7:52:25 pm)
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    Dont get me wrong, I'm not a big glock fan. Although I own a G36 that I carry fairly regularly. I carry a sig 220 on duty and shoot a kimber in IDPA matches several times a month. One thing you have to say about a glock, it works, every time. All the state agency's here (Ar.) use glock as issue. Game and fish have been using the them since 90 or 91. I think it is the gun writer Jan Liborel that has been doing a glock 17 test since the late 80's, the last I read about it he had fired 170,000 plus rounds with it no parts breakage. As I recall all he's had to do is replace magazines, six sets of three and replace the extractor once.

    I know that a couple of my co-workers bought 10mm's. One bought a glock and the other bought a colt. It was no time before the colt was having all type of stress related problems and the glock just kept right on without a hickup.

    I don't mean to hurt any 1911 owners feelings, I love my single action .45's. But come on guys give credit where it is deserved. At least give something new a chance.

    BTW, Austria is the country that spawned the glock. It was designed by Gaston Glock to be a military weapon only, hence the jacketed bullet restriction. The type of rifling that the glock has, has been around for a long time, the old h

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3098
    (3/19/02 10:12:12 pm)
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    Chief, good post, but have you seen those pictures?

    Lead did not do that, and I doubt it had anything to do with reloads.

    EVERY military design is designed for FMJs, since the first Geneva Convention so I don't buy that either.

    It's NOT that I'm not giving them a chance, I have. I waited long enough , I always do, I NEVER jump on firearms bandwagons. There REALLY is nothing new under the sun.

    Just like everybody did in Law Enforcement when everybody "just had" to have 9s, then found out over time it was not the panacea they thought, from the beginning I saw the same thing happening with Glocks...there have been some ungodly claims made about it's superiority in all situations, and everybody again had to have one or they were not "hip."

    And now the jury is in. The only defense of the bad design is some pretty lame excuses, that don't hold water. ANY one of them could cause an isolated blow up, but so many?


    And finally, in this day and age of litigation, it doesn't even have a SAFETY...(?)




    "Don't hear him call you an @sshole, hear WHY he's calling you an @sshole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    Chief 101
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 93
    (3/19/02 11:05:26 pm)
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    GEEZZZ..................

    I had a post that took me half an hour to type and POOF!!


    I dont like the idea of a plastic gun any more than you guys. But after owning and shooting a whole bunch of glocks for the last 13 or 14 years I feel that they have earned thier place. Every report I'v seen on a blown up glock has been because of shooting lead bullets. It may be a flaw in the design to use that type of rifling in the things, but it easy to correct. How many of us buy a Colt or some such and promptly start sticking OEM or aftermarket parts on it to make it work better?


    I have a buddy thats a game warden. He was issued a Glock 22 .40 in 90 or 91 as I recall. To this day he is carrying the same gun with no parts replaced (except new "drop free mags). He's a shooter, with qaulifing four times a year, and and all the shooting he does on his on, I bet that weapon has had a couple hundred thousand rounds thru it, with no problems. But all he shoots is FMJs and his old duty ammo when its time to swap it out. Thats a pretty good test for me. I base all of this on my own hands on, and with people that I know. Thats the only true way to find out.

    BUT please for the love of everything thats holy, stay clear of S&W Sigmas!!!!!!!!!!!!




    Chief 101
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 94
    (3/19/02 11:14:06 pm)
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    I would like to see somebody do a test where two of the same pistols(colt, kimber, glock, smith, whatever) would be fitted with two types of barrles. One with a standard barrel and one with the same type rifling that glocks uses. Shoot lead bullets (reloads or factory) through them and see what happens. Just gotta find a sucker..er...volunteer to shoot the one with the poly-rifling..



    Steve

    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 2843
    (3/20/02 6:05:44 am)
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    Why would any company sell a gun to the public and then say "By the way Mr. Public, don't shoot regular bullets in that gun" and now that they have done such a thing why in the heck is the regular public buying a gun that you cannot shoot the common everyday bullets in?

    Aftermarket barrels are available so you can shoot lead bullets.

    I have never actually fired a Glock. After holding one and feeling how they handle I have no desire to. It felt like pointing a big plastic brick.

    I wonder if Aston Glock has ever held a 1911 or a Hi-Power?






    Zigzag2
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2672
    (3/20/02 6:34:26 am)
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    I personally would rather learn from others mistakes... due to not living long enough to make them all myself.

    When the local PD changed from the S&W mdl.66 to the Glock in 1990/1991, the guns were closely monitored. In no time, there was evidence of internal rust and corrosion. The Glock was literally shit-canned for the Sig!

    Russian Roulette Anyone?



    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3100
    (3/20/02 9:01:19 am)
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    Yep, we all stick stuff on our 1911s to make them handle better, or quicker, or shoot more accurately, but I cannot recall ANY modification we (have) had to do to keep it from Blowing Up!

    If you look at all the "evidence," and even if you have to dismiss it as "anecdotal," (like Glock and Glockies, or anyone in any controversy tries to do) what explanations do you hear?

    Lame excuses. Blame the shooter. Blame the reloader.

    "What kind of dufus gets a new gun and DOESN'T READ THE MANUAL. DUH."

    (How many of you have EVER bought a new or used gun that did NOT have a manual? AND if it did, be honest, how many of you ALWAYS read the manual first when you buy ANYTHING before you use it? Be honest. EXCUSE DENIED.)


    "Reloads were used in most cases."

    (Reloads have been used extensively for DECADES in ALL auto pistols with no problems except idiot overpressure loads for different reasons, but blow ups because of bad reloads are relatively RARE until Glocks come on the scene? The only way THAT happens is if you can prove reloaders have gotten sloppier or more stupid coincidentally over the same time Glocks became available.
    Reloads have been proved to in many cases to be MORE reliable than factory. Reloading is the ONLY way to get in enough affordable practice to become proficient with any handgun....EXCUSE DENIED.)

    "Weak,old, mixed, even 'range pickup' (GASP!) cases used"

    (Weak cases have split, or "blown" without causing catastrophic failure in MOST other designs... and EVERY once fired case is a "range pickup..." EXCUSE LAUGHED AT.)

    "Lead bullets were used..." (even though Glock and many Glockies DENY that this would cause it to blow! If you notice, this defense is usually advanced by some Glockies...THIS may be the biggest "myth" coming out of the blow-ups...by SUPPORTERS...)

    (Lead IS the traditional firearms projectile since the middle ages! There IS nothing new under the sun about what can happen when lead is pushed down a barrel. Reloaders have more information, manuals, etc about LEAD now than at any time in history! Plus MILLIONS maybe Tens or HUNDREDS of millions of lead 200gr H&G #68s in .45ACP alone have been shot through 1911! I put so many dry lube through a series 70 barrel that every other round keyholed...it looked like a smoothbore, but OVERPRESSURE? Be serious...one of the SELLING points of the .45 is it's LOW chamber pressure, even when compared to a 9mm! EXCUSE DENIED.)




    But are their any other possible causes, and what are Glocks and Glockies responses?

    "Unsupported Case Heads" By Glocks own admission, and what is understood by everybody who reloads, is the cased is the weakest part of the action...so they leave the base UNSUPPORTED by the chamber? For feed reliability?????

    ANYBODY who has "throated and polished" a .45 1911 feed ramp KNOWS it is imperative NOT to remove so much metal that the rear of the case is "unsupported..." But how many "home brew throat jobs" HAVE removed too much??? And STILL didn't blow? Remember, the .45 is relatively LOW pressure.

    But Glock "announces" they have "improved" the case head support on new models...THERE, we have an ADMISSION no matter how shallow...and even if they continue to deny it would cause blow ups. and...even more interestingly, they CONTINUE to blow up. (I REFUSE to use the term KB..."Catastrophic Failure" has been the proper term forever, "Blow ups" was OK in the vernacular, why do we have to RENAME it even, to be "Glock Fashionable?")

    "Improper Metallurgy" GLock and Glockies REFUSE to even listen to this...but HAS this been a problem with MANY designs in the past? YES! Many later successful pistol AND rifle designs have experienced this problem, but Glock refuses to admit it. WHY?

    Look at the photos, especially the ones with the blown case still in the action...the CHAMBER is what is split...not the back of the case in alot of them...MOST instances of blown cases, in other pistols and rifles, the gas is expelled rearward violently, and is vented back and out, BUT the barrel/chamber USUALLY does not explode...except in "detonation" instances....

    From my experienced, but admittedly untrained (I am NOT a SAAMI engineer) eye, this is the only viable excuse.

    I really do not believe it has anything to do with the polymer frame, unless the feed issue solved by the "unsupported cse head" was caused by it and it is a contributing issue...I'D say it is the metalurgy...


    ...and also this is the ONE thing Glock can NEVER admit....if it is because of defective metallurgy, they ARE liable for a defective product! They will be out of business for sure if they react....especially after all this time have elapsed.

    Can you imagine the COST of a recall of EVERY Glock pistol ever made for rebarreling? Much less the settlements of the lawsuits....

    Far from being "close minded" and "not accepting new things," I think ANY openminded person would be looking at these blow ups critically, and questioning Glocks....but with the "zeal" of converts to any "new" religion or cause, many "Glockies" are simply now "enablers."

    And when Glocks were first introduced, and were attacked as "Undetectable by metal detectors" by the antis, I defended them. And Glock USA, Inc. is a success story in the business world, having had it ROUGH trying to get a foothold, and a market niche...I WANT to see "polymer" guns succeed, it IS the cutting edge of technology...
    "Don't hear him call you an @sshole, hear WHY he's calling you an @sshole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    gun runner john
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 504
    (3/20/02 9:01:53 am)
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    I have both 1911's and Glocks, including a Glock 21. I feel just as safe shooting my G21 as any of my 1911's. As far as blowing up the gun, you might want to take the grips off your 1911 and look to see what's under them. That's air, not metal between you and the magazine! With the wood or plastic grips that are the most common on a 1911, you've got far less protection for your hand than with the Glock. You have to go out of your way to blow up a Glock 21, and I doubt these guys were using common sense with the reloading.


    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3105
    (3/20/02 10:24:39 am)
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    But John, HOW MANY OTHER auto pistols are you aware of that blew like that?

    In such a relatively short time?

    IF the Glock is not to blame, then are you saying ONLY reloaders who shoot Glocks are careless or stupid? The only PROOF of this would be the SAME number of statistical catastrophic failures for every design, per 1000. IF any design blew the same number on average, then you could claim it was only due to reloaders.

    Now you MAY say, only Glocks are under the microscope now, but WHY do we NOT hear of others blowing at the same time???

    MAYBE the internet makes it only SEEM like a lot have blown, and MAYBE all those pictures, coupled with all the other claims, and LE Agency memos are NOT statistically out of line with any other design, (I really don't see how, though...)

    ... the kicker for me was Kdub's original post...TWO DIFFERENT Glock's from two DIFFERENT shooters blow IN ONE WEEK at the SAME RANGE. That is pretty irrefutable evidence in my book...should be in yours too...THAT, I'm sorry, in my experience, has NEVER happened with 1911s I am pretty darn SURE...and I have NEVER heard of it with ANY other design either, even the old "pot metal" revolvers!!!!


    DO you think if S&Ws were blowing, for example, with the boycott, deep feelings for and against S&W, etc, and motives to make S&W look bad, that the SAME NUMBER OF BLOW UPS would NOT be reported on the web for public consumption?

    Blaming the reloader would NOT account for so many Glocks blowing, sorry...


    I shot IPSC EXTENSIVELY in the midwest for years, so was exposed to MANY other pistol shooters, and MANY good and bad reloading techniques and "quality control..."(check out my Dillon stories...)in several states, both directly and by word of mouth.

    I can count on the fingers of my hand that's missing a digit the number of instances I HEARD of ANY handgun, much less a 1911 blowing up, from back then...even with PLUGGED BARRELS.

    And even in all the gun magazines at the time, I heard of MAYBE another couple at best....

    I SAW only one after the fact, a .38 super that the guy was ADMITTEDLY "pushing" the chamber pressures... and he and others around him were unhurt, and the 1911 was mostly salvageable...how did I react? Stick to the low pressure .45, the .38 for IPSC was DUMB. Because there was NEVER an issue with the guns design....ANYONE knew they were chancing it with chamber pressures with the Super to hit "major."





    And as to the "plastic..."

    Please answer THIS. IF you indeed had a firearm with a higher propensity to "blow..."

    WOULD you personally rather have the frame made of POLYMER, or STEEL?

    If it is NOT prone to blow, I agree wholeheartedly, it makes no difference...

    But do you, or ANYONE else, have PROOF, data, etc, in other words, anything OTHER than the same "anecdotal evidence" (the..."I've shot MINE forever and it hasn't blown up YET...")that Glockies so easily discount when it makes Glock look BAD, that the Glock design is NOT prone to blow any more than any other design?




    Pictures are worth a thousand words...so I'll shut up...






    "Don't hear him call you an @sshole, hear WHY he's calling you an @sshole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    Zigzag2
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2674
    (3/20/02 2:40:35 pm)
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    If a picture tells a thousand words (and those are some incredible pictures), how is anyone going to persuade a Glock owner differently?

    BlackGun
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 3456
    (3/20/02 2:51:07 pm)
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    To utter the word GLOCK in my presence is blaspheme!
    I suffer from occasional loss of mental stability, and become very violent with only slight provocation. The Veterans Administration has determined that both mental and physical harassment of my person may be hazardous to your health and well being. So stay away from my Donuts!!


    BlackGUN


    zigzag2
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2675
    (3/20/02 3:32:25 pm)
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    nuff said...

    Edited by: Zigzag2 at: 3/20/02 5:29:35 pm

    BlackGun
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 3462
    (3/20/02 3:39:16 pm)
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    Ziggy! You won't get an argument from me!
    I suffer from occasional loss of mental stability, and become very violent with only slight provocation. The Veterans Administration has determined that both mental and physical harassment of my person may be hazardous to your health and well being. So stay away from my Donuts!!


    BlackGUN

    Zigzag2
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2677
    (3/20/02 7:55:47 pm)
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    I knew it... lol

    AGunguy
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 1570
    (3/20/02 8:07:03 pm)
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    Warpig is right, looks like a damn black brick...ugly mofo.

    Anthing that ugly will sooner or later blow up.

    GG

    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 2846
    (3/20/02 9:13:41 pm)
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    Polish is right. People reload for all the brands and i am sure there are idots doing bad reloading for them all. but the ones that BLOW UP are the plastic guns.


    Hey guys look at my new gun.

    Gee willikers WP that is a nice one. What is it?

    Rubbermaid and it is indestructible.

    Oh boy got to get one of those.

    If any of you ever here a conversation like this from me take the plastic gun and beat me over the head. But be careful it might explode

    MO JENKINS
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 156
    (3/20/02 9:44:35 pm)
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    Why can't these "glockies" admit that EVERY TIME an incredibly reliable, simple, robust design that is handcrafted,
    (yes and probably labor intensive) is perfected(yes and built with high quality and hard to machine,etc materials), A VERY MANY SUBSEQUENT DESIGNS ARE CHEAPENED AND THEIR INTEGRITY IS DESTROYED!!! People come along and "improve it" making it less labor intensive to produce and using cheaper,easier to fabricate materials. CAN YOU GLOCKHOLES SAY "PLANNED OBSOLECENCE". Are you people capable of observing what has happened to 99% of the rest of the manufactured goods over the last 50 years????? Probably not, I guess!
    All right, I'm finished ranting now and will cease and desist from p!ssing everybody off! I'm sorry, I'm just offensive by nature. I was born this way!.......
    OH YEAH, by the way... compared to the Glock, the S&W 66 is a SUPERIOR COMBAT HANDGUN!!!!!!!!!!!
    Your Buddy,
    MO JENKINS

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 393
    (3/20/02 10:15:11 pm)
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    UPDATE - UPDATE - UPDATE

    Worked with one of the Rangemasters present Sunday when the 2nd Glock .45 ACP came unbundled.

    The shooter was using JACKETED handloads at the time! A Speer 200 gr HP, loaded with 8.0 gr of Hodgdon HS-6 and a standard LP primer.

    CONJECTURE: As with all reloads, the possibility of a squib load being fired, followed by a full charge load may have been responsible. All remining loads were checked for OAL (OK), case length (OK), crimp (OK) body sizing (OK). Bullets were pulled and powder weighed. All checked out +- .2 gr of base line charge.

    I've seen handguns, all revolvers, that have been fired with a squib load slug lodged in the barrel followed by a full load. All resulted in a slight bulge in the barrel - nothing more. Well, the Ruger Blackhawk shucked it's front sight, too.

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3110
    (3/20/02 11:10:04 pm)
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    Kdub, did he say the guy jacked the slide before firing the next round? A squib wouldn't have worked the slide with enough force to eject and chamber a new round you wouldn't think...if it did, the round would have exited...

    From my "Dillon" observations back when Dillons took a seperate motion in the loading rhythm to punch the powder drop, and guys would miss occasionally when loading REAL fast, when the primer went off on a lead HG #68 it would stick in a 5" barrel and the slide wouldn't even move, saw this happen MANY times...you had to jack the slide and not see the case was empty when it ejected, chamber another round without checking, THEN pull the trigger...in other words you had to WORK to blow it up...in an auto, a revolver was easy to blow if you just pulled the trigger again...but of all the guys it happened to, and it happened to just about EVERY competitor that used a Dillon back then, I NEVER heard of a guy blowing his gun up like that...they always "caught it" in time. even the dufus that stuck TWO back to back...

    And I saw a jacketed reload get pushed all the way out of a 6" Nastoff one time...propelled only by the primer...it was funny, looked like a cartoon...two of us were focused on the gun as the guy was shooting for a group, and it just kinda "ejected" out the end of the barrel and fell to the ground! Phht! Plunk.

    You'd think even a primer would get it out of a short Glock barrel...

    Unless it "detonated," I still don't think a handload caused any of these....


    "Don't hear him call you an @sshole, hear WHY he's calling you an @sshole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    lugerlvr
    Member
    Posts: 11
    (3/21/02 2:20:41 pm)
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    Could this happen to a HK USP also, having the same rifiling??? Should I not use lead in it?

    AGunguy
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 1575
    (3/21/02 3:53:30 pm)
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    Lugerlvr, have you ever used lead bullets in the HK?

    I would give the distributor a call who sells the HK, start asking a lot of questions. Be safe my friend.

    Gunguy

    lugerlvr
    Member
    Posts: 12
    (3/22/02 9:50:41 am)
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    gunguy-no I haven't used any lead yet (maybe never now). I generally use off the shelf target loads and premium defense loads (hydra-shock, silvertip etc...). The range I belong to is an authorized HK dealer, I'll call them as soon as they open. I'll post their response when I call them. Thanks!

    lugerlvr
    Member
    Posts: 13
    (3/22/02 12:59:06 pm)
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    The HK dealer said that they do not recommend using lead bullets in their guns because of the possible higher chamber pressure.

    gun runner john
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 517
    (3/22/02 4:42:36 pm)
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    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    But John, HOW MANY OTHER auto pistols are you aware of that blew like that?

    In such a relatively short time?

    IF the Glock is not to blame, then are you saying ONLY reloaders who shoot Glocks are careless or stupid? The only PROOF of this would be the SAME number of statistical catastrophic failures for every design, per 1000. IF any design blew the same number on average, then you could claim it was only due to reloaders.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    I've seen any number of semi-autos and revolvers blown up by careless reloading, so I fail to see your point. Several local gunsmiths have a "rogues gallery" of destroyed guns, and only one of at least 20 is a Glock in the two collections. Without doing something pretty stupid, it's pretty hard to blow up a .45ACP, being a pretty low pressure round. I have three 1911's, and two .45ACP Glocks, and the unsupported case on the Glocks is no larger, and maybe even a bit smaller, than the 1911's. The Glocks also will not fire any more out of battery than the 1911's.

    Now, if you can provide that statistical analysis you spoke of, I'm all ears, but so far all I've heard is two incidents of accidents with reloads.
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