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PLEASE HELP me identify a Flintlock holster pistol

6K views 12 replies 5 participants last post by  rhmc24 
#1 ·
Hi,

I am a french student in conservation based in London and I am currently working on a Flintlock full-stock holster pistol.

I would need some help to identify the period and country of manufacture please...

There are some relief carvings around the lock, the barrel tang, the fore stock and the side plate.
The brass pommel is finely engraved with strawberry foliage and is flanked by two long spurs on each side of the stock. The timber of the stock is English Walnut.
It is fitted with a floral engraved brass trigger guard and an engraved escutcheon (no arms).
There are two baluster brass ramrod pipes. The forward ramrod pipe is engraved.

The two-stage steel round barrel with smooth bore is 255mm in length and 18mm calibre. A fade mark 'TS' and a crown is visible on the proper left side near the breech. another mark 'IG' is stamped under the barrel.

The side plate and the ramrod are missing.

I haven't seen the lock as it is detached but the owner certified it is a flintlock and it bears no mark.

Through initial research, and based on the design and materials, I think it is an english pistol from 1680 to 1740.

What do you think?

Many thanks in advance.

G

P.s. One more thing: I can find the reason why the barrel is 'two-stage' (the barrel was made in 2 pats but for what purpose? any idea?
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#3 · (Edited)
Yes, I think it is English, but it is hard to go beyond that without the lockplate.

Are you sure the barrel is two piece, and not just stepped or perhaps "half octagon"? That was a common type barrel at the time and for a couple of centuries afterwards, at first for strength, then just for appearances. (Winchester made rifles with half-octagon barrels well into the 20th century, for example.)

There were pistols with two piece barrels, made to screw off for loading from the breech, but they were normally short barrel pocket guns, while that looks to be a full size military pistol.

The cotter pins, needless to say, are modern.

Jim
 
#6 ·
Thank you for your prompt replies gentlemen!

Jim: I think I mistook a 'two-stage' barrel for a 'stepped' barrel! As I saw a 'ring' on the barrel (at 175mm from the muzzle, see attached pics) I thought it was made in two parts and assumed that what 'two-stage' means.... apparently wrong! thank you for the precision Jim, from now on I shall call it a 'stepped' barrel.
It is round to round (not octagonal).
I didn't know that a 'two-stage' barrel was breech loading (like a Queen Anne). the present one is definitely a muzzle loading: the only screw is the one through the tang..... and yes the cotter/split pins are 'slightly' more recent!:)
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Hawg: yes I've seen it on oldgun.co.uk. There are some resemblance.

Bullshoot: yes the drawing where the sideplate should be is serpentine design but does it mean that it is the original one? couldn't have it been added later?
I hesitated between english and dutch origin but the Strawberry foliage engraving convinced me to opt for english.

Does anyone have any idea regarding the (faded!) marks?

I can't find any exploded view/drawing with the name of the components of a flintlock pistol like this one (I only found long gun/rifle and breech loading or Queen Anne!) any idea?

Many thanks,

G.
 
#7 ·
Sorry for the confusion on the barrel. It looked to me like either a half-octagon or a two diameter (stepped) barrel. It actually seems only to have a decorative ring around the barrel. You said it is made in two pieces, though, and I don't think it is.

Jim
 
#8 · (Edited)
A little more info would help. Is the barrel length 12 inches? Bore diameter? A good photo of the trigger guard & finial (forward of trigger). A good photo from the top showing the breech area from end of tang to an inch or so forward of the vent area. I'm trying to confirm it being a modified mid 1700s English military.

See example: (photo credit ken-drake.com)

 
#11 ·
Although, as others have said, it is English but none of the details are military. While it it probable the barrel was cut, it was never 12 inch length (if the present is 10.5}. Mid 1700s English military pistols were almost all 12 inch barrel, altho there was a 10 Dragoon very rare. This was probably an English commercial pistol, considering the simple decor on it, basically of the same style and proportion as the military, just a bit smaller and finer finish. Too bad it is in such rough condition.

The pistol in my picture is dated 1944. It has a 12 barrel. The left side pix clearly shows the pin near the muzzle, from which you could scale very ciose to the original barrel length of your pistol.
 
#12 ·
thank you for your contribution rhmc24!
why do say it could not have been cut from 12inches down to 10.5? it means it would have been much longer ?
I guess you meant your pistols were dated 1744 (not 1944!)
here are my estimations based on my research...

Based on the research results, dating and style estimation can be given. The absence of the side plate and the lock where a obstacle as they would have brought more information. The analysis was done based on the design of the pistol.

The construction is early english with only one screw in the barrel tang trough the stock and the pins that secure it across the stock through brazed loops.

The design of the bulbous long spurs butt cap is late seventeenth early eighteenth century.

Strawberry foliage engravings are found on early English pieces, possibly because the strawberry leaves in heraldry are linked to the English dukes and thus is a symbol of prestige. It is not said here that the pistol belonged to a duke but that the strawberry foliage became fashionable after the restoration in England.

Like earlier pistols it has a smooth bore, round and full stocked barrel.

The length of the barrel indicates a holster or horse pistol.

It has the .69 calibre of a cavalry pistol. Although cavalry pistols were about 12 inches long, it is now 10.5 inches long. As it was common practice, it could have been shorten later in the eighteenth century to serve as a coat or traveling pistol to a civilian. This would justify the sharp irregular muzzle.
The cavalry were also thin and smooth bore barrel. Since the barrel and the stock near the cock show traces of heavy uses, may be it was originally a cavalry pistol and the engravings could have been done originally for an officer.

More over holster pistols were a size favoured by civilians for instance for dueling, until the 'proper' plain dueling design appeared in the 1770s. With the English standardisation of the barrel manufacture in Birmingham in the middle of the seventeenth century, the standard cavalry barrel could have been assemble and decorated in London for the civilian market.

A positive microscopic identification of the timber confirmed that the stock is English walnut (Juglans regia).

The mark on the barrel could be a proofmark but it is too fade to be properly read. Research on the mark read as a crowned 'TS' was vain.

Further research was undertaken to compare the artefact to similar dated pistols.
The two records below were taken from volumes consulted in the reading room of the British Library and no copy of the picture could have been done.
- A late seventeenth century, 12 inches barrel pistol by G. Trulock. (Hayward, John Forrest, The art of the gunmaker. Vol.2, Europe and America, 1660-1830 (London: Barrie & Rockliff, 1963.) p. 12

- A 1680s pistol with a cut barrel down to 10 inches. (Dixon, Norman. Georgian pistols: the art and craft of the flintlock pistol, 1715-1840 (London : Arms and Armour Press, 1971) p.29

and internet:Christies, Sales 6542 / lot 237 < http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?from=sales
ummary&intObjectID=3103328&sid=6e1ddb89-0918-46cd-9474-7b5ec9a9dfc9 > (02 may 2011)

Journeys and antiques < http://journeysendantiques.net/Saunders firearm.html > (02 may 2011)

Vallejo Gallery < http://vallejogallery.com/item.php?id=1870 > (02 may 2011)
 
#13 ·
Yes 1744. Re barrel length estimate, from your picture the pin loop looks to be about 2 inches from the muzzle. That indicates it to be close to its original length. If another 1.5 inch were added to the barrel (to make 12 inches) the pin loop would be over about 3 1/2 inches from the muzzle.

If you will scale the 1744 photo you will find the forward pin to be about 2 inches from the muzzle.

These pistols were made to a fairly rigid standard of design and dimension. The Tower of London would make a number of pistols as nearly alike as the then technology allowed. One of these called a 'sealed pattern' pieces was given to each civilian gunmaker to copy as closely as possible. You might find it interesting to research this.

Finally, the trigger guard finial (for example) is not at all similar to the standard they all followed. As I said before, a good quality commercial piece.
 
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