Pop Quiz!!!

Discussion in 'General Military Arms & History Forum' started by ysacres, Mar 7, 2003.

  1. ysacres

    ysacres Well-Known Member

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    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 818
    (6/15/01 11:03:22 pm)
    Reply Pop Quiz!!!!
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    OK, Guys, a quiz!

    Post your answer, but don't give away the answers if you know it until we "grade" it. No fair copying, must do your own work.

    If you aren't sure, post your work in logic leading to your guess, we'll give extra credit for a good essay!


    Today's Question:

    Which of the following US Fighters did NOT see any documented Air to Air combat in WWII, from December 7th 1941 until the end?
    Curtis P-36 Mohawk
    Boeing P-26 Peashooter
    Republic P-43 Lancer
    Bell P-400
    none of the above

    Show results


    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 819
    (6/16/01 8:32:05 am)
    Reply Re: Pop Quiz!!!!
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    We'll wait for a few more posters before giving the answer, but remember you have to put your NAME on your paper to get credit!!!!



    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 821
    (6/17/01 11:33:20 am)
    Reply Re: Pop Quiz!!!!
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    OK, heres the grading.

    The P-36 Mohawk, outside of some in China, several scrambled at Pearl Harbor and got some kills, in fact, the first Air to Air victory by the US in WWII.

    The P-26 Peashooter was a front-line fighter in the Phillipines until 1940, believe it or not, and two squadrons assigned to the USAAC but piloted by Phillipine pilots were on active at Clark on Dec. 7/8 1941. The first few days their only job was to scramble and get away so they could be saved for recon or courier duty, but there is at least one case documented, (Two depending on your sources) of instances in the Philippines where (a) P-26(s) engaged enemy planes, Martin Caiden has a Phillipine Lt. damaging a Val, and I've heard (on the net, another book) claims of up to two kills, one a Zero...This is one of my favorite inter-war fighters, I was ecstatic when I first heard it fought in early WWII...now if I can only dig up where an F3F was in combat!!!

    P-43 Lancer, I almost caught myself on this one. When I posted I did not think any saw combat service BUT since, (on the net) I found about 100-175 served in China as late as '42, and basically got chewed up.

    P-400 was the export version of the P-39 with a 20mm through the spinner opposed to the 37mm of the 39, and a British Oxygen system, which was non-existent on Guadalcanal where we used them so it was only used at low altitude. But this was a good thing because the Allison was a pig at anything but low altitude. It had a few kills on the 'canal.

    SO, the correct answer is (e) none of the above.

    Considering this was an "open book" test, with the Google search PROVIDED for you, if you failed you are officially an ignoramous with absolutely no knowledge of... (computers?)

    But since you are at least INTERESTED in history, (You're reading this, aren't you?) you are head and shoulders above at least 99% of your fellow Americans who are basically Historically Ignorant, and "blissfully unaware," if not merely stupid.

    So for that, I give you all an A+.

    Bob In St Louis
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 528
    (6/17/01 12:22:49 pm)
    Reply Re: Pop Quiz!!!!
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    Polish --- PPPPBBBBBLLLTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!
    Support the Dead Party, vote Harry S. Truman for Missouri Senate in 2002!

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 824
    (6/17/01 1:12:07 pm)
    Reply Re: Pop Quiz!!!!
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    Hey Bob, I can't find that one on my old GB dictionary of acronyms. Are you giving me the raspberries or having a siezure?

    Xracer
    Moderator
    Posts: 412
    (6/17/01 1:24:31 pm)
    Reply Re: Pop Quiz!!!!
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    The P-36 Mohawk (or Hawk 75) actually scored more kills in Axis hands.

    It was a front-line fighter with the Finns against the Soviets....and was in the Finnish inventory as late as 1948.

    "The Germans captured most of those (Hawk 75s) received in Norway (some had not yet been taken out of their shipping cases) and sold eight of them to Finland.

    These Hawk 75A-6s for Finland were supplemented by 36 partially-completed Hawk 75As that had been seized by German forces from France at the time of the Armistice and assembled in Germany. These participated in the war on the Axis side when Finland entered the war against the Soviet Union on June 25, 1941. These gave a good account of themselves, and some Hawks remained in service in Finland until 1948.".....from Joe Baugher's site.

    Re: The Peashooter: "Most of those P-26s that had been stationed in the Philippines had been sold to the government of the Philippines by the time of the Japanese attack. The Philippine government acquired 12 P-26As beginning in July of 1941. Some of these P-26s were serving with the 6th Pursuit Squadron of the Philippine Army Air Force based at Batangas Field at the time of the Japanese attack. Despite their total obsolescence, the Filipino P-26s succeeded in scoring some victories against the Mitsubishi A6M Zero during the first few days of the Japanese attack. One of the Philippine P-26s is credited with shooting down the first
    Japanese plane destroyed during the early attacks on the islands. The best-known action took place on December 12, 1942, then a group of six Philippine P-26s led by Capt. Jesus Villamor shot one bomber and two Zeros with the loss of three P-26s. However, the few P-26s operated by the Philippine Army Air Force were quickly overwhelmed by the onslaught of the Japanese Zero fighters, and the surviving P-26s were destroyed on the ground by Filipinos to prevent them from falling into enemy hands."......Joe Baugher

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 826
    (6/17/01 2:31:52 pm)
    Reply Re: Pop Quiz!!!!
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    Another annoying but typical conflict of sources.

    Martin Caiden in "Ragged Rugged Warriors" has Jesus Villamor leading an attack of 5 P-26s against a force of 50 Jap Bombers on Dec. 13th '41 raiding Batangas Field and scattering it, but downing no planes. The only action of the Peashooters he mentions.

    There is no mention of P-26s used against the Japs during the raids on the 12th, only P-40s, but even then it was against orders.

    After Dec. 10th MacArthur ordered that fighters were not to attack or fight enemy aircraft, and were to be used only for reconnaissance. On the evening of the 10th,the official report of the Interceptor Command to MacArthur listed a total of 22 P-40s and 8 P-35s left in the entire Philippines. The P-26s were considered "virtually useless" and the numbers available was not listed in this report for that reason.

    According to Caiden, the first "kill" was by Lt. Randall B. Keator in a P-40E in the first raid on the 8th.

    My thoughts? The Peashooters probably shot down no enemy planes, ESPECIALLY Zeros.

    The P-35s were much better than the P-26, some surprised some Zeros on the 9th out of the sun, full dive, the Zeros reacted and got on the tails of each "with ridiculous ease" and shot them up so badly none flew again.

    This is the time (the 10th)of the famous "Hirunama"(Later changed to the "Haruna") "sinking" by Colin Kelly. He even recieved a posthumous MOH for it. Not only did he not sink it, (it was actually steaming off Indochina when it was supposedly sunk by Kelly!) he actually bombed (and missed badly) a light cruiser and not one moving ship during the entire war was ever documented hit by high level bombing!

    Plus Lt. Samuel H. Marret was killed strafing a Jap transport with his P-35 the same day, which blew up when he was right over it, and he "flipped into the sea." This was reported in US papers as "a heroic deliberate suicide dive into the side of an enemy ship" in the US papers on Dec 20th. Experts think since the two occured during the same attack, it was this explosion that the survivors of Kelly's 17 that bailed out saw and reported as the sinking Battleship!

    The public was starved for "good" news at his time, and no claims were refuted. Plus Air-to-air claims were by nature grossly exagerated by all sides, especially early in the war.

    SO, if I had to bet the farm, I'd say they fought valiantly, but the P-26 NEVER shot down a plane, much less a Zero!

    Edited by: polishshooter at: 6/17/01 3:47:18 pm

    17th FA Bn
    Member
    Posts: 6
    (6/17/01 5:38:26 pm)
    Reply Re: Pop Quiz!!!!
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    Xracer were the Finns official members of the Axis alliance? I know they fought side by side with the Germans against the Russians. From what little I've read they fought the Russians on three occasions, The Winter War prior to World War II, the continuation war at the beginning of operation Barberosa (spelling?) and a defensive campaign in late 44, early 45 as the Germans retreated thought their country.

    It seems they had weapons from every major combatant except Japan. The British gave them equipment during the Winter war. The Germans gave them weapons when they were comrades in arms against the Russians. They captured Russian and American lend lease equipment from the U.S.S.R.

    I love Polishshooters grading curve. I voted for the P-43, I thought it was a prototype that lead to the P-47, and never saw service. With 1 wrong 0 right my score would be a 00%, but with Polishshooters generous scoring system I still get a A . Where was this guy when I was in school?

    Kdubya
    Moderator
    Posts: 502
    (6/17/01 10:02:29 pm)
    Reply Re: Pop Quiz!!!!
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    The P-36 Hawk was also used by the Royal Thialand Air Force and was successful in several operations at the beginning of the war when in a border dispute with Laos. Laos was flying late model biplanes of Japanese manufacture. The P-36's also shot down some twin engine Japanese model bombers. When Laos and their ally, Japan, began flying the Zero against the Thia's, things changed. One Thialand pilot was cedited with several Japanese fighters and a couple of bombers prior to being shot down, himself.

    This information was in World War II magazine some months ago. The magazine is no longer around, so all this is from failing memory.

    Seems there were 2 or 3 models of the P-36 that were exported and the Thia's had a little of each. They liked them above all other imported planes they had in inventory.
    Keep off the Ridgeline!!

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 831
    (6/18/01 10:03:24 pm)
    Reply Re: Pop Quiz!!!!
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    17th, actually the FInns were actual members of the AXIS alliance, and actually the only ones to come out of the war intact and in pretty good shape.

    They were between a rock and a hard place, or else maybe a rock and a bear. Mannerheim did a GREAT job playing both sides against the middle. In fact when the Russians invaded, and he bloodied their nose even when the Finns lost, it set the stage. Nobody was going to blame him for seeking German help, and in fact the whole western world sent aid.

    And the final phase, when they kicked the Germans out to keep the Russians out was pretty cool, the pursuit was a farce until the very end when some Germans burned a Finnish village when going over the border to Norway, then they actually fought. Until that point the Finns were just looking like they were chasing them out to appease the Russians. It worked, they kept their independence.

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 832
    (6/18/01 10:12:41 pm)
    Reply Re: Pop Quiz!!!!
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    Kdub, There was a "long nose" Version of the Hawk, I think it was named the CW-21, it had a lot of promise in China in the late 30s but just like the Hawks, most were destroyed by inept Chinese pilots and mechanics. It was the Hot Fighter of '38, but the US wasn't buying alot of planes then. It would have been interesting to see good pilots use it against the Zero, but most got wiped out in training, one whole flight flew into the side of a mountain.

    The Hawk 75 (Precurser to the P-36) was actually tested against the Spitfire I in England and was actually rated superior. Just as maneuverable in level flight, but twice as good in a dive. In fact, the British pilots who flew it said it was a BETTER dogfighter than the Spit I.

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 834
    (6/18/01 10:42:08 pm)
    Reply Re: Pop Quiz!!!!
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    Hey, extra credit, no fair using Google! (That's what I did!)

    I read in "Ragged Rugged Warriors" of a guy who in 41-42 was in a "Material Squadron" in charge of assembling and processing the planes sent to the CBI for the first two years of the war.

    He says "the P-40, the P-66, the P-43, and the A-24 were some of the early ones..."

    Now I knew them all but the P-66, I thought it was a typo the first time I read the book. THAT one stumped me, BUT now I know...

    I always say, if you don't learn at least ONE new thing every day you just ain't trying...

    I just learned my new thing for today!

    For extra credit, name for me what the P-66 and the A-24 were...

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 835
    (6/18/01 10:49:18 pm)
    Reply Re: Pop Quiz!!!!
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    Oh crap, guys, I can't keep it a secret, check out what I just found!!! It's amazing! USAF "Pursuit Gallery" (!!!)

    www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/r...ursuit.htm

    Xracer
    Moderator
    Posts: 427
    (6/20/01 8:23:26 am)
    Reply Re: Pop Quiz!!!!
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    OK.....without looking it up....the A-24 was the Army version of the SBD.

    The P-66 was the export version of the Vultee Vangard......looked sorta like a Corsair without the bent wings.

    What was the P-70? (and no fair looking it up)

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 851
    (6/21/01 9:46:22 pm)
    Reply Re: Pop Quiz!!!!
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    AHA! I knew this one...One of the first books I got from the Mil Book Club was "NightFighters"...

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 878
    (6/23/01 7:41:06 pm)
    Reply Re: Pop Quiz!!!!
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    OK, I stayed out of it to see if anybody would bite, but here it goes...P-70...the Nightfighter version of the A-20 Havoc Twin engine attack bomber. Used for night interdiction also against German nightfighter airfields.

    You know, most of the attention to the airwar has been given to the Daytime bombing and fighters, but there was ALMOST as much activity at night, many "dogfights," interdiction on both sides, many aces, crews lost, almost as much as the day, but not as much historian coverage.

    Also, arguably, the BEST air to air fighter of the war, believe it or not, according to MANY experts was the P-63 Black Widow! It was faster, longer ranged, better armed, and, GET THIS, could OUTMANEUVER a P-51!!!!! In fact, it may have been the most maneuverable fighter of the war!!! (as well as the biggest!)

    All this, and a platform that could carry the bombload of an early Fortress...

    Some experts have pondered what would have happened if we made it our primary day air superiority and fighter/bomber as well as night fighter/interdiction FB.

    17th FA Bn
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 8
    (7/11/01 1:23:31 pm)
    Reply Re: Pop Quiz!!!!
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    Looking at the WPAFM site the P-51 Mustang was a little quicker at 437 mph compared to the 425 of the P-61 Black Widow. Also the Black Widow cost $170,000, compared to $54,000 for the Mustang. I understand that during war money may be no object, but if a plane cost three times as much in dollar terms it would also require three times as much in man power, materials and plant capacity, which are in limited supply. Would one P-61 be worth three P-51's?

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1569
    (9/15/01 11:56:33 pm)
    Reply Re: Pop Quiz!!!!
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    I dunno, but I know when they sent one over the Prison Camp where the Bataan survivors were held just to distract the guards during the raid that freed them in '44, EVERYONE looked up, said it looked like something out of Buck Rogers. The pilot showboated for 20 minutes, blasting over on both engines, barrel-rolling it, hammerheads, one engine, the works..all the while the Rangers were crawling up to the fence over open ground...I don't think a 51 would have attracted that much attention...and the prisoners were crying...they had NO idea America even remembered them, much less that we had built such great and new weapons...

    And some of my sources have later models, probably after they removed the turreted .50s that just blinded the pilots when fired, as faster than the 51...

    I'm not sure money was an object at that time of the war, and all those 20mms in the 61 was much better than 4 or 6 .50s...heck, they REMOVED from it the same firepower the 51 carried....

    And then they went to the Twin Mustang, to fight Jets, which didn't work, but didn't improve much on the 61...

    Ah, I just like to argue...The Mustang was great, I just like the "underdogs" or else good planes with no press better...
    Well, I didn't win the Powerball, so I still collect Russian Crap and variants thereof. ( And am darn happy I can!)
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