Private Gun Transfers

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ninjatoth, Nov 4, 2009.

  1. rentalguy1

    rentalguy1 Former Guest

    I still stand by my original comments. If a person intends to be the end user of the product, it is not a straw sale under the law. The way the OP was written, it did not state intend to sale, but merely the purchaser was CONVINCED both to buy, and to sell. Now, common sense dictates that if the original purchaser had to be convinced to both buy and sell, then his intent in purchase was not to re-sell the rifle to the other person. Had it read that the purchaser was convinced to do both in one sentence, that would have made the difference. It's getting confusing again...If person B said "I don't have the cash right now, but if you buy it, I will buy it from you next week" that would be a straw sale. In this instance, person B convinced person A to purchase the firearm one day, then "several days or weeks later" person B convinced person A to sell it to him. Person A clearly intended to be the end user of the rifle until he was convinced to sell it to person B. Clear as mud, right? I still say there was no straw sale.

    What the law intends to do by banning "straw sales" is prohibiting the sale of firearms by a unlicensed individual for profit. There are two distinct reasons for this. One is so that they can keep tabs on exactly who is moving weapons around in this country. That is a farce, on it's face, because the majority of weapons sold in this manner never create a problem, because they are owned by law-abiding citizens. The second reason is for money. If a unlicensed person is selling firearms for profit, the government did not get it's fee for the FFL, and it did not get the tax money from the sale.

    So, knowing this, and that it is a federal law that all firearms sold by a FFL to a individual must undergo the instant background check (sorry ninja, even long guns), you should know that the form we fill out for the background check asks if we intend to be the end user of the firearm. If, for any reason, you intend to sell that weapon after it's purchase, yet state you are the end user any way, then you have broken the law. The only exception to this, is if you intend to give the weapon as a gift. So, if you plan to buy a gun so that you can turn around and sell it the next day, or month, or year, you have broken the law. If your buddy can't pass a background check, is under age, or does not have the cash on hand, and you purchase the gun for him, you have just broken the law.

    If your friend sells you on the finer points of a particular rifle that he has been ogling for months, and you purchase it, then that is not a straw sale, and no law has been broken. The only thing that anyone is guilty of is being a good salesman. If that friend then convinces you a week later that you should sell that rifle to him, then there still has not been a law broken, because you did not intend to re-sale the rifle when you bought it.

    Now, to the attorney that posted: just curios as to which area of the law that you specialize in. I am sure you are aware that anyone with the proper education and training is competent to research, read, and interpret the law. I am not a attorney, but I have had to make a living by doing practically the same thing, sans arguing a case in front of a judge and jury. I was a journalist who wrote on business and business law, and then ended up working for a municipality dealing with compliance in EPA and TDEC regulations, and local, state, and federal law. Since my medical retirement I have immersed myself in veterans law. If I could sit long enough to make it through hours of lectures, I would go ahead and jump into law school. Unfortunately, I can only sit for several minutes at a time, so that is out...

    This has turned into a great thread! Please, no one take offense at my style of debate. Old habits are hard to break, and I have been toe to toe with the VA on my own claim, and the claims of several other veterans for the last year and a half. You literally have to beat their own rules, regs, and laws into their brains in order for them to properly adjudicate claims.
  2. Alpo

    Alpo Well-Known Member

    Feb 3, 2007
    NW Florida
    End user has nothing to do with it.

    My granddaughter has a rifle. She has never had a background check done on her. The check was done on me because I bought the rifle. The first question is, "Are you the actual purchaser of the firearm?" Not, "Are you going to use the gun yourself?" I never intended to keep the gun. It was bought solely with the intention of giving it away. So, you say I have committed a Strawman Purchase because I went around the background check? Because I am not the End User? Wrong.

    The Strawman Purchase thing is when you buy a gun for someone that cannot buy the gun. If I buy a gun, in Florida, for a friend who is visiting from Alabama, then I have done a Strawman. If I buy a gun for someone that has a felony on his record, or a misdemeanor domestic violence beef, that is a Strawman. If I buy a gun for Joe, who is perfectly legal to buy one himself, that is not a Strawman. I have committed perjury by saying "Yes" to the first question, so it is still breaking the law, but it is not a Strawman Purchase.

    But being the "End User" has nothing to do with it.

    Also, you do not have to have an FFL to buy a gun with the intent to sell for a profit. You have to have an FFL to "be in the business of buying guns and reselling for a profit". Buying one gun for resale is not "being in the business".
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2009

  3. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth Former Guest

    Jul 3, 2009
    [QUOTEThe Strawman Purchase thing is when you buy a gun for someone that cannot buy the gun. If I buy a gun, in Florida, for a friend who is visiting from Alabama, then I have done a Strawman. If I buy a gun for someone that has a felony on his record, or a misdemeanor domestic violence beef, that is a Strawman. If I buy a gun for Joe, who is perfectly legal to buy one himself, that is not a Strawman. I have committed perjury by saying "Yes" to the first question, so it is still breaking the law, but it is not a Strawman Purchase.][/QUOTE]

    How about this,this is why I got kicked out of another site for this advice:There was an 18 year old,that,is legal to purchase a long gun from an FFL,or private seller,he is not a felon or any other restricted person,but he wanted to purchase from an online dealer.Well,the online dealer has a rule that they do not sell to anyone under 21.So I suggested that he have someone else 21 order the gun and purchase it,pick it up from the dealer,then re sell it to him.I don't believe I told him wrong,since he is not going around any laws,he is simply going around a website's rule.Well,not one person agreed with me on the other site,got at least 20 responses bashing me,and when I refused to back down,the administrators kicked me out for being"argumenative".In my heart I don't believe I advised anything illegal at all.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2009
  4. rentalguy1

    rentalguy1 Former Guest

    That is a straw sale and is illegal
  5. rentalguy1

    rentalguy1 Former Guest

    Are you daft, or can you not read? Or, did you just decide not tor read what I wrote. It is LEGAL to purchase a gun and give it as a gift. It is ILLEGAL to purchase a gun with the intent of re-selling it. Read the LAW. there is a link in this thread to it. You are correct in your verbiage on the form, but you are incomplete in the meaning and spirit of the law. The definition of being in business is buying something and then selling it at a profit. If you do this just once, guess what.....according to the're in bidness! :)
  6. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth Former Guest

    Jul 3, 2009
    I really don't see a difference between giving a gun to a legal reciever as a gift,or giving a gun to a legal reciever who just happens to give you the money for it,as long as they are not prohibited from owning a gun.I think if they are legal to recieve it,reguardless of money exchanged,that it is not a straw purchase,but if you give a gift of a gun to someone without any money exchanged,and they are a felon,then that IS a straw purchase.And even if there is some law against it(which I'm waiting for proof of,other than the lingo "straw")how in the world could the government first of,know money was exchange,or know of intent.I just think the law isn't there.I will bet that any laws found will deal with purchasing for prohibited people,felons,minors,mental incapables,etc,not legal recievers.
  7. You guys are all over the place. I thought a straw sale is when you sell a gun
    to someone who has the intent of passing it on to someone who is not qualified
    to buy that gun. If both parties are legally cleared to buy guns. What's to stop
    A from legally transferring a gun to B.

  8. Bobitis

    Bobitis Guest

    So, if I'm trying to instill a work ethic in my son, and teach him the value of a dollar, I'm in business and breaking the law?
    Did you know that if you barter or trade, you're supposed to report that to the IRS?
    Under this premise, even the gifting would be illegal. Why?
    The gift is being made with intent involved. I'll give you the rifle, but you have to shoot it. In other words, I give you something and I get something in return. That would be considered barter or trade, and therefore require reporting to the fed.

    I would say there's a whole lot of gray area in the matter.
    To me, a straw purchase is when a firearm is bought with the intent of selling it knowingly to someone that is precluded from 'owning' a firearm.
    My son can't legally 'buy' a handgun, but he can legally 'own' one.
    Make sense?
  9. pawn

    pawn Active Member

    Jan 31, 2007
    Crossville, TN
    You may not agree with " a law" but that doesn't disqualify it from being a law. Maybe you would benefit from a chat with your local LEO, gunshop owner or somebody else in real life. This continued pontification seems pointless...:eek:
  10. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth Former Guest

    Jul 3, 2009
    here is the definition from a website,and it seems to be a little gray.

    A straw purchase is when a buyer uses an intermediary (the "straw man") to purchase a firearm(s) from a licensed firearms dealer. The purpose is to hide the true identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm(s). Straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser (who can be charged with lying on Federal Form 4473) and the actual possessor. Frequently, the actual purchaser is a prohibited person under federal law.
    This is also on the site:Complicating matters, it is perfectly legal for one person to purchase a firearm as a gift for another person. For example, a grandfather for his grandson or a husband for his wife.

    all I am asking is that if I can immediatly sell my gun I just bought to my friend,or give it as a gift.If my friend is not prohibited from owning the gun,and I am not TRYING to hide his identity,I am only trying to either make him try out the gun,love it,and ask if he can buy it off me(if he was shy about guns previouse,and decides he wants one),or give it to him as a gift.It's like i'm right and wrong at the same time,it's very gray.In my mind,I have done nothing wrong if I do it,but others think I am.What if I bought a gun for my dad,gave it as a gift,then 2 weeks later,he gives me money to pay my bills,are the feds going to swarm me?lol.I recieved money from a person that I gave a gun to.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2009
  11. GMFWoodchuck

    GMFWoodchuck New Member

    Oct 9, 2008
    Binghamton, NY
    This thread is going nowhere fast. The person who was convinced to buy the gun did not buy it with the INTENTIONS of SELLING it. Therefore, nothing wrong/illegal happened. The end. Not a straw sale. Not a dirty sale. Not a phony sale. Not any kind of sale except a legal one as far as federal laws are concerned. The BATF will never even bother looking at this, beyond a quick look over in a situation in which the second buyer goes on a shooting spree. No charges will be filed, just a bunch of questioning that your lawyer will deflect. Just make sure the second buyer isn't a felon and that you pay your local sales taxes for it to be a legal sale.......Not to start a new argument.......
  12. Double D

    Double D Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 16, 2009
    North Florida
    Just a small injection. You say "just make sure the second buyer isnt a felon". How would the average person go about this?
  13. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth Former Guest

    Jul 3, 2009
    You couldn't know,so I don't think you would be in trouble.The website I got the information from emphasizes that one isn't supposed to be asked by a different person to go buy a gun for them at a FFL.It makes no metion of private sales.There is nothing stated that says one person can't ask another person to buy them a gun from a private seller.I guess it all boils down to lying on a form that you have to fill out at an FFL stating that you are the actual buyer(Federal Form 4473).Well,even if you are planning on selling the gun really soon,are you not still the actual buyer,even if you plan on re selling it in 2 days?
  14. Bobitis

    Bobitis Guest

    I've sold one firearm in my life.
    I had a bill of sale and verified the buyer by driver license.
    All details were recorded.
    One will usually never know, but one can back up the transaction with details.
    Not much else you can do.
  15. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth Former Guest

    Jul 3, 2009

    read this.

    In what they uncovered,They were dealing with handgun purchases,and I absolutely agree that in states where handguns are registered,buying a handgun and letting someone else take it or use it is illegal,but I am talking about long guns,and in my state,long guns are not registered,so I don't see the harm in passing off an unregistered gun to someone I know is sane,not a felon,or prohibited from using that gun.I mean,it's legal for me to buy a deer rifle 2 days before opening day,pass it off to my nephew for him to borrow,no crime there,so why is it a crime if I knew I was going to just give it to him,or if I KNEW he would ask to buy it.
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