quality of 16" v. 20" barrel on AK??

Discussion in 'General Military Arms & History Forum' started by Guest, Mar 3, 2003.

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    southernfreedom
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    Posts: 134
    (10/15/01 7:44:34 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del All quality of 16" v. 20" barrel on AK??
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    Does anyone have an opinion on which is better...........a
    Russian 16 inch or Russian
    20 inch barrel on an AK? Thanks.

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2550
    (10/15/01 8:48:03 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: quality of 16" v. 20" barrel on AK??
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    Depends on what you are trying to accomplish. i have always thought the 16" is at the limits and even though some say the AK in the 16" barrel is not that accurate, I would ask them to stand in front of it with me behind it......say 300 yards. The 20" barrel not only adds to the ump, but gives a little more flight time and accuarcy. Since I know you shoot these and if you have had one with the 74 style flash hider, you are aware of the unburned powder flash from the short barrel, this is lost energy from a short round (Russian Short .30) a very good design to say the least. In jungle or close combat consider this, though some will disagree. The M16 delivered a 55gr FMJ at around 3,000fps but it looses it`s deliverable energy pretty fast because of it`s light bullet, then you take the Russian Short .30 at close to 2,000fps and nearly three times the grain weight, the transfer of energy at 200 yards is much greater than the 55gr`er and hits much harder, one fired from a 20" barrel and the other from a 16" barrel, now your going to make the barrels equal length.....a 20" for the .30 short, watch out! LTS
    America, we are the symbol of Freedom and Liberty......

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1904
    (10/15/01 11:59:36 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: quality of 16" v. 20" barrel on AK??
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    EXCEPT...(My turn to stir the pot, LTS )

    WHY don't you see any AKs on the 1000yd line at Camp Perry, while the HB AR15 is now the undisputed 1000yd champ? Even beats highly modified MIAs, and Garands...

    Why did the Green Beret teams compromised in Iraq ALL engage the Iraqi troops at 500 yds, EFFECTIVELY, in one case 8 of them with their ARs, granted 5 had optics, killed over 150 confirmed, and the Iraqi AKs didn't come close in return...in fact the only people that gave them trouble were the Bedouin militia armed with Enfields and Mausers that WERE able to return effective fire...

    At 300 yds, take the AR...not the AK, 300 is MAX for the AK with the BEST shot, but still deadly for the .223...with any merely competent shot.

    I disagree with your ballistics comparison...the x39 is best compared to the .30-30...at SHORT ranges it outclasses the high velocity .223 55 or 70 gr....but loses it's energy MUCH faster than the .223 does...at 300 yds, the .223 is better...still flat shooting and retaining more energy, while the x39 is dropping fast...just like any other round, hunting or otherwise, heavier and slower only beats light and fast at CLOSE range...the only thing that beats light and fast in energy at range is HEAVIER and fast! Case in point...your old .45-70 guide gun vs., say, a .220 Swift...for extremes. WHICH one would you rather have in your hands for a pig at 50 yards, or an Antelope at 600, if those were your ONLY choices and you HAD to take the shots?

    I know you love the AK, and within it's limitations, I like the x39 round too, but face it...it is JUST a copy of the German 7.92 Kurz...intended for HIGH VOLUMES of UNAIMED, LIGHTER recoiling fire from a round HALFWAY between a handgun round and a "real" rifle round in power, so it is more effective than an SMG for a relatively untrained peasant, to pin the guy down in the ASSAULT until you get close enough to toss the grenade...

    The AR is NOT NECESSARILY for the same purpose...it was to provide EFFECTIVE defensive RIFLE fire, for the US Infantry, whose purpose is to FIND AND FIX the enemy for Arty or Air to destroy...the lighter round is to eliminate need to resupply so MUCH...the trooper can carry 3X as much EFFECTIVE rifle rounds, rather than 1/3 the number of BETTER rounds (.30-06, or .308 ) .

    The .30 cal full power rounds everybody used in WWII and before were for when AIMED Infantry rifle fire was the main offensive weapon on the battlefield.

    The ONLY reason for the x39 or the .223, is that the role of the Infantry has CHANGED. The Russkies believed (still do to some extent,) that the infantry is to CHARGE and DIE, all that is needed is a weapon that will ALWAYS fire, in large volume during the charge...

    The US believes the Infantry is to just FIND the enemy, then fight defensively to survive until some other arm actually destroys them...

    So THEREFORE, my choice for the "Mid Range" x39 is the SHORTER barrel...4 more inches is NOT going to make the x39 into a "real" rifle cartridge...the only thing that could do that is 15mm of case length

    Just stirring back...
    I'm so PROUD to be an AMERICAN...

    Edited by: polishshooter at: 10/16/01 1:35:32 am

    southernfreedom
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 137
    (10/16/01 5:56:33 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del quality of AK
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    Wow PolishShooter! You certainly are no fan of the AK.
    Here is my view. I carried an M-16 in Vietnam. I was not impressed. Yeah, they are
    lightweight and nice looking but the bullet is too small! I don't intend on shooting over
    300 meters anyway so if the AK does drop off in velocity at 300 meters it is not a big
    concern with me. I'm going to tell you something else that I haven't seen commented
    on before in any forum. The M-16/ AR 15 is cheap junk! My M-16 literally
    broke in half in the jungle where the receiver meets the buttstock. I was
    stuck out there with a .45 pistol and yes we did get attacked that night
    and I was scared sh*tless! No war story, just fact. I really believe the m-16/AR 15
    is one of the most over-rated firearms made. Chinsey and cheap. But I can drop
    my AK in the mud, run over it with a tank and pick it up and fire it! This post is
    just my opinion and not meant to disparage anyone's opinions. I just think the AK
    has more knockdown power and is better built than the M-16/AR 15.

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2555
    (10/16/01 7:22:26 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: quality of AK
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    Camp Perry???? Pasha Those guys are shooting a totally different bullet and it is much longer and heavier, we are talking military FMJ, not custom loaded rounds and custom rifles. The transfer of energy is greater in heavy weight bullets no matter the velocity. .45acp comes to mind (vs) 9mm. To compare the irockies, to the bennies is a moot point, like those sand people train at rifle ranges......give me a break............
    America, we are the symbol of Freedom and Liberty......

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1908
    (10/16/01 10:14:44 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: quality of AK
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    I did NOT say I did not like the AK! It is TREMENDOUS for what it is intended to do...you just have to understand what that was!

    And you CANNOT deny what it is intended to do is provide a HIGH VOLUME of AUTOMATIC fire in which accuracy is NOT required, in a package that is IDIOTPROOF, and can be issued en masse to lesser or untrained, peasants, or guerrillas, and it will FIRE with little or no maintenance, after having been left in the mud and run over by a truck.

    Funny, how historically the weapon the OTHER side if succesful, is always given "status" by the enemy...many histories AFTER Vietnam give first hand accounts of VC/NVA veterans...Their favorite weapon during the war? Captured M-16s....

    I am not completely enamored with the 16 either, BUT you cannot understand a weapon by "loving or hating" it...but by understanding what it was designed to DO.

    The Russians like fool proof, peasant proof weapons, witness the Mosin Nagant versus Mausers, etc.

    In WWII, they fell in love with massive UNAIMED shortrange fire in the assault, witness the numbers of PpSH 41s and 42s, used more SMGs on the front line than ANY other combatant by far.

    When the Germans fielded the STG 44, in numbers, for the reasons stated, low recoil, lots of ammo, select fire, MID RANGE round MUCH less powerful than a rifle, but more range/power than a Pistol/SMG round...they copied it like they do anything ELSE that works...

    But first, they adopted the SKS, arguably more accurate than the AK...WHY didn't it stay front line?

    VOLUME of AUTOMATIC fire....PERIOD. Accuracy is secondary, especially when you have a Dragunov gunner in close support, with the REAL rifle round...

    But the US NEVER adopted the same role for infantry-cannon fodder.

    And you CANNOT argue, the x39 is NOT and will NEVER BE considered a High Power rifle round...considering case cap., pressures, velocity limits, compared to the size/weight of the bullet...

    The .223 IS considering the same criteria, a "High Power, Small Caliber, RIFLE round." And ballistically, you are STILL not correct...Which transfers more energy, ANY .45 ACP, or the .357 Mag? Depends on the RANGE, doesn't it?

    WHY would ANYBODY have switched from .58 or .45 rifle rounds to .30 or smaller? VELOCITY. Which MEANS power when combined with the proper bullet... BOTH are important, to the success of the round...BIG HEAVY SLOW is ONLY good at SHORT range. PERIOD. And your "Psha" at Camp Perry over bullets...PROVES my point! You CAN tweak a "real" HP rifle round into a LR round! The only way to do that with the x39? SMALLER BULLETS!!!! And finally, if it was so good, WHY did the Russkies go to the 5.45???? VELOCITY!

    Rifles are NOT pistols...for pistol ranges, give me HEAVY and SLOW. For a rifle, it's DIFFERENT!

    Admit it, LTS, you "love" AKs, so you are BIASED.

    Kinda like me and my '97, don't you see? I sing the praises of the '97, but if I REALLY am truthful, you have an inherently unsafe design, with MANY weaknesses, for a purpose better served by later or even more modern (gasp!) riot gun designs....

    But I STILL "love" it, don't you DARE dump on it!


    It is not the critic who counts, nor the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of the deed could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming, who does actually strive to do the deeds, who knows the great enthusiasms and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly. His place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat. -Theodore Roosevelt 1898 I'm so PROUD to be an AMERICAN...

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2559
    (10/16/01 12:14:58 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: quality of AK
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    Disagree First I don`t think the 97 ever had a design flaw, maybe a flawed operator.

    I find it interesting that you compare the AK to the M16 and aimed fire, you know I ain`t buying that argument, as the M16 round was designed to wound and expend "many rounds of unaimed fire also......hence, you can hump more ammo....hence you can expend more ammo.

    The AK was designed for unaimed fire, massive "cover" fire at close range, but "killing" fire not wounding fire. You also claim the VC loved the M16 and would enjoy having and using one, hey we loved the AK and would use them when they were captured too......they worked!, and the ability to find ammo was easier too. (in the field) The M16 comes from the same class of non-thought as the 9mm vs the .45acp when the military changed, does not make it so.

    The real reason the M16 has continued in service so long is much the same as the AK`s legacy. We have short sold them to ever country that would take them and have attempted to change the world over to the .223 round.......cause we know best??? I find it funny that everytime I see Special Teams, from the FBI to the SAS and others.....the M16 is low on the totem pole, HK`s FN/FAL Carbines, Valmets and others.....like the AK`s also, why would this be???? oh yea, I remember now...........I ain`t peeling spuds here, at the soup station.

    One further point, the effective range of an AK is 800 meters also........
    America, we are the symbol of Freedom and Liberty......

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1911
    (10/16/01 2:49:44 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: quality of AK
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    Wrong again, LTS

    The STANDARD weaponry of an 8 man A team is 6 M16s, usually more than half with optics, 2 at least with 203s. The other two USUALLY carry supressed HK MP5s.

    Yes, the SEALS rarely carry them, but they like STONERS in .223 too, loved them in 'nam. But usually the whole team has SMGs.

    Second point, ALL military rounds are designed to WOUND! The reasoning is a dead soldier only requires one guy to BURY him AFTER the battle, a wounded guy takes at least one for immediate first aid under fire (another target!) Two to carry back to an aid station, and an estimated 8-12 personnel to care for later, from evac, to doctors, to nurses, etc. THAT is the reason the Geneva Convention outlawed HPs....

    Second, WHAT makes you think a STANDARD .30 cal bullet pretty similar to what has been used for 50 years+ prior, only LIGHTER, behind a LESSOR powder charge is a KILLER?

    Believe it or not, the NVA/VC complained that the 55 gr was a KILLER, because the wounds were "too inhumane..." Propaganda, sure, but for every anecdotal "I hit him and nothing happened" I can show you one of "It hit him in the ELBOW and tore him up and exited out the back of his NECK!"

    Of the two, the x39 is PRETTY stable, so produces "cleaner" wounds, less trauma. If you had to choose which one to get hit by, pick the x39...

    And back to the Beanies...the REASON they prefer the 16A2? They really can use the "3 times the ammo load they can carry" because on semi, they can hit EFFECTIVELY out past 500 yds, and "make sure kills with one shot..."

    800 yds EFECTIVE range of the x39...yeah right. I think you read that wrong, that MAY be MAXIMUM, but ANYbody knows "effective" is 300 or LESS.

    And the sights on my Steyr Straight pull carbine can be set at 2400 meters, too...

    Remember, the .30-30 comparison...I WONDER what the ballistics of a .30-30 at 800 yds would be, HHmmm....probably about the same as a 12 guage foster slug at about 150yds...And guys CLAIM to hit deer with them at that range every year!

    Again, no matter HOW you trick it, an AK action will NEVER be seen on the 1000yd range.

    MAYBE at 500, but only with a different cartridge...

    The 16 DOES have a checkered beginning and past, BUT it STILL is the one rifle that has been standard US issue longer than ANY in HISTORY.

    No matter what, it would NOT have lasted if it was junk.

    It really has developed into the PIW that all others are measured by.

    No matter HOW that sticks in your craw...

    And the argument that their are so many AR-15s in the world which is why everybody uses them? GIVE ME A BREAK. 100 TIMES more AK-47s have been GIVEN away by the Soviets, but STILL as soon as a country can AFFORD better, they DO!

    And the RUSSIANS don't even use it anymore...and it has NOTHING to do with the 5.56 NATO, it's just that their Infantry tactics have changed too...

    What is the ONLY major Army still using the AK-47? China....HHmmm....Cannon Fodder. I rest my case.




    It is not the critic who counts, nor the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of the deed could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming, who does actually strive to do the deeds, who knows the great enthusiasms and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly. His place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat. -Theodore Roosevelt 1898

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2565
    (10/16/01 4:18:58 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: quality of AK
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    I love it, good for you! But you are wrong. In order for energy to be transfered, the bullet must loose it`s energy in the target and not after it pass`s through it and that is why the .357 and .223 just rely on static numbers. The same is true of the 9mm, as they could pass through some of the early vest and the .45acp could not on the same vest, energy delivered. To compare the 39 to a 30-30 is also some what misleading, though they may be of the same power, the bullet design is not and the 30-30 loose`s it`s energy much faster, so find a different comparision. That is also the reason for lighter bullets, enter the new world......round nose bullets (heavy) then the spitzer style (pointed and 20% lighter) less powder charge and better distance and accuarcy. That carry a wounded GI, is part of the urban myth sold when they also sold the tumbling bullet bunk. Ever seen a FMJ .223 hit something....BB hole, in and out....even in bone. Ever see the .223 military test on a watermelon, to show it exploding....POWER OF THE .223, well a high velocity .22 lr HP will do the same thing at 1500fps at 36gr. Don`t loose sight of flat nosed slugs or round nose bullets, they loose 30% of their velocity and energy within the first 100 yards or less. It`s much like looking at the .308 Win and the 30-06, try as people may.....these two rounds are very close as they approach 300+ yards in every way. We are not shooting game, people targets are weak in comparison to wildlife. Lets just get to the real point, carry more ammo, so we can shoot more ammo. The standard pack of the GI is still the same or more, pretty soon they`ll be carrying .22LR so they can hump more rounds, to shoot more rounds, but carry more lightweight crap to keep the load the same, but they`ll have more ammo and a .22 will wound too. BITE ME
    America, we are the symbol of Freedom and Liberty......

    southernfreedom
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 141
    (10/16/01 10:48:02 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del quality..................
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    LIKTOSHOOT & POLISHSHOOTER: Well, you guys both
    know more about velocity and arc of the bullet than me and I find your
    posts interesting indeed. But to me it boils down to costs and fun and
    reliability. I simply feel the AK is superior. I do know a guy who got an AR-15
    and was so anxious to be a man he took his pet dog out and filled it with
    AR-15 bullets. Sick!!

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2570
    (10/17/01 6:53:59 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: quality..................
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    Since you have a 16", why not have a 20".......heck I`ve been looking for a 11-1/2" Krink set up (pistol)......you need to have them all.........right????
    America, we are the symbol of Freedom and Liberty......

    southernfreedom
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 142
    (10/17/01 10:02:43 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del the superior quality of the AK over the toy M16
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    LIKTOSHOOT:My guess is the Russian is better quality than
    the Chinese AK and i can legally use a pistol grip on the Russian because
    some of its parts are made in the USA. I'll pass on the pistol. ;-)

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 1070
    (10/17/01 10:11:58 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: the superior quality of the AK over the toy M16
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    I should be getting a quantity of the Russians fairly soon. I'll let you know.


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1916
    (10/17/01 11:07:25 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: the superior quality of the AK over the toy M16
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    I was WONDERING when I was going to get the patented (or is that copyrighted?) LTS "BITE ME."

    And I LIKE the 7.62x39...even if it IS a sucky, innacurate, lightwieght, commie round...and I never REALLY felt comfortible with the woodchuck killer .223 either...even if it IS a real rifle round, and more accurate...*)

    Give me a .308, or even better, a MAN'S commie round, the x54! From a 20" barrel you get like 5 feet of flame, and a guy in Florida will shorten the barrel to 16" or less (NFA if less, or he'll weld on an FAL flashhider)for $100, might just have a 44 cut just to see the flame from IT on New Years Eve...
    It is not the critic who counts, nor the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of the deed could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming, who does actually strive to do the deeds, who knows the great enthusiasms and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly. His place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat. -Theodore Roosevelt 1898

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2579
    (10/18/01 7:19:13 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: the superior quality of the AK over the toy M16
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    hehehehehehehehehehe......you knew it was coming.
    America, we are the symbol of Freedom and Liberty......

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1932
    (10/22/01 8:37:33 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: the superior quality of the AK over the toy M16
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    Hey, LTS, when I was out of town, read a piece on Special Forces I thought you would find interesting...

    The hands-down first choice of just about EVERY special ops operator now is the M4 carbine, in .223...even like it better than any HK MP in any config, I guess it takes a decent suppressor, too.

    The reasons listed were "reliability, as well as the ability to do ANYTHING an SMG can do at short ranges while retaining the capability to accurately engage targets out to 500m...and the .223 will penetrate bullet proof vests..."

    Interestingly, when it came to handguns, they are allowed to choose their own, anything goes...NOBODY carries a 9, much less a Beretta...reason that it cannot penetrate a vest that the bad guys sometimes wear, and not enough power to put them down from "trauma..."

    Then it said over 60% ot the operators carried "some variation of the 90 year old Colt 1911 in .45" Most of the others carry Glocks in .40 or .45, with some in .357 SIG, but some even carry SS revolvers in .357...
    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915
  2. Omoney

    Omoney New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2013
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    I have a norinco nhm91 that has a 20 inch barrel so it's called a rpk clone. That thing can shoot out very accurate at 200 yds compared to my Egyptian which has a 16 inch barrel and after 100 yds it gets less and less accurate. The only downside on the 20 inch is its heavier than an average ak so shooting it for long periods of time might require you to put the bipod on it
  3. langenc

    langenc Member

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    Location:
    Montmorency Co, MI
    Wish my DTI was a 20"er.
  4. Bigbill

    Bigbill Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
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    Location:
    Northeast(ct)
    I have the new russian izmash saiga in 308win with 16" barrel. Most saiga owners like the 16" barrel over the 22" barrel. I would think the 16" barrel at the longer distances would fall short and this is where the 22" barrel would take over. My 16" saiga benchrested with south african 308 ball surplusammo will shoot 1 1/2" groups at 100yds constantly if we do our part.
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