Ques about Stalingrad snipers

Discussion in 'General Military Arms & History Forum' started by Guest, Mar 3, 2003.

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    rayra
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    (8/31/01 11:50:34 pm)
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    ezSupporter
    Ques about Stalingrad snipers
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    anyone have info on both the Russian and German lead snipers - I'm up on most of the Barbarossa and Stalingrad campaigns, but can't recall anything about the snipers, other than that they were players.
    Understand 'Enemy At the Gates is getting dogged for their portrayal of these shooters, would like to know the facts before I see the film.

    Anyone?

    Rich

    polishshooter
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    (9/1/01 12:23:52 am)
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    I believe somewhere earlier in this forum we may have discussed them, I think in a post called "Enemy at the Gates," right after the movie came out. Check back a few pages to about April or so.

    The movie actually wasn't too inaccurate about the story...there were plenty of snipers used on both sides. The Russians actually began using them effectively first, and whole sniper battalions were raised. The Germans reacted, and after a while, anybody that showed a portion of themselves above the rubble was dead. Period.

    The only safe way around was inside buildings, sewers, or through big deep trenches in the rubble.

    Snipers owned everything else.

    The story about the "duel" between the top German and top Russian sniper is the absolute truth... a certain Russian sniper, I don't remember his name but I can look it up, I know I have it in several books, just a regular peasant soldier assigned to be a sniper, and turned out to be darn good at it, ran up ungodly numbers of kills and developed a reputation. I believe Stalin gave him a medal personnally after the battle, and he was credited with like 300+ kills.

    The Nazis responded by calling up the commandant of their sniper school in Germany( I have his name somewhere too) to come and take him out, you know, Nazi superiority and all, "We'll show him!"and they hunted/stalked each other for days, and the rest of the battle in their area kinda dwindled down for awhile, and let them at each other, according to accounts on both sides.

    In the end, a Commisar up at the front to watch the "duel", that everyone had heard about,for the propaganda value, jumped up and said "There he is!" and the Nazi shot him dead, the Russian THOUGHT he figured out where his hide was, under a piece of sheet metal in the middle of the street under rubble, he had his spotter do the old "helmet on a stick" trick, the oldest trick in the book, and the Nazi "Superman" bit, put a round through the helmet, Russian saw the smoke from the round under the sheetmetal, and put a 200 gr 7.62x54R from his 91/30 through the middle of it...his spotter then crawled out and there he was underneath, one dead German officer Super Sniper.

    This account was attested by witnesses on both sides.

    Sometimes the truth is BETTER than fiction...

    But there were thousands, maybe tens of thousands of actual scoped rifle snipers on both sides during Stalingrad. I saw a picture in a book of an entire Russian Sniper platoon moving up through the rubble, every last one of about 40 men had a scoped snayperskaya 91/30...
    Well, I didn't win the Powerball, so I still collect Russian Crap and variants thereof. ( And am darn happy I can!)

    rayra
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    (9/1/01 12:05:32 pm)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: Ques about Stalingrad snipers
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    Thanks very much for the info, Polish.
    I'll go dig for the other discussion as well.

    I'm very interested in reading more about the snipers, and their respective backgrounds, have to go dig for references - do you know if the(ir) names used for that movie were correct?

    Rich

    polishshooter
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    (9/1/01 9:33:03 pm)
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    You know, I hate to say it, but I haven't seen the movie yet! I was waiting for it to come out on video, it took a long time, but it JUST came out.

    My son saw it, said it was pretty decent and believable except for the "love scene." But then AFTER it was out I read an account that said the love scene was true too!

    Soviet women were officially "encouraged" to do anything possible for the heroes at the front.

    Interestingly, last week I went shopping with my wife and daughter, and wandered into the bookstore at the mall and saw the book "Enemy at the Gates." The movie was based on it, and it was non-fiction. I'll have to get it and read it.

    Just about any book in the library on Stalingrad will have the story of the sniper duel in it, with names...
    Well, I didn't win the Powerball, so I still collect Russian Crap and variants thereof. ( And am darn happy I can!)

    17th FA Bn
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    (9/3/01 1:33:13 pm)
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    I read the story about the top Russian sniper versus the comander of the German sniper school In Barbarossa. This is rated as one of the best books on the USSR vs. Germany in World War II. However ........

    I read some where else that the whole story is a fabrication. With hundreds of snipers operating on both sides how would you have any clue where a particular sniper is working? By thier very nature snipers are very low key in combat.

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
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    (9/3/01 10:25:03 pm)
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    Each true sniper that is successful over time has his own "mark" or technique, it's not hard after a time to figure out their special idiosynchrasies.

    Kinda like the VC/NVA knowing ALL about Carlos Hathcock, putting a price on his head, and sending the top NVA sniper to hunt HIM.

    When a sniper is active and successful, it's not hard to figure out, just look at the number and types of KIAs you are experiencing.

    And it is also not a secret, that the best counter to a sniper is another sniper...that has been known since snipers were first used in warfare.
    Well, I didn't win the Powerball, so I still collect Russian Crap and variants thereof. ( And am darn happy I can!)

    17th FA Bn
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    (9/4/01 5:28:28 pm)
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    This may be a dumb question, do military snipers shoot for the head or center of mass?

    Police snipers usually go for head shots because they need instant stops.

    If a military sniper scores a hit in the torso it would probably be fatal at least 1/3 of the time, and the rest of the time it would take the enemy out of action for a very long time. A shot to the torso would be at least twice as easy to achieve as a head shot.

    LIKTOSHOOT
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    (9/4/01 6:14:25 pm)
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    Depends on the distance and what the shot has to accomplish.
    "am not" R2

    rayra
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    (9/4/01 6:25:28 pm)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: Ques about Stalingrad snipers
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    Never attended a Sniper School, but Marine long-range marksmanship (500meters) always focused on center-mass - no optics

    I'd figure if you're shooting a round in the .30 range (.308, '06, 7-8mm), any body hit is a good one, by whatever way you care to evealuate it (morale, injury, material loss, incapacity, whatever).
    Add to that the fact that at any appreciable range, an 8" melon is a pretty tiny target, center mass is still the answer.
    Shooting guns out of crooks' hands is for static situations, not 'targets of opportunity' - shoot whatever you can hit!

    Rich

    polishshooter
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    (9/4/01 9:56:47 pm)
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    Saw a USMC 1000 yard sight-in target for snipers with scoped M14s and target ball somewhere...the kill zone was center chest, the aiming point was like 2 feet above the head, dead on was I think 4 or 500 and crotch was I think 200...the idea was to put it anywhere from neck to crotch from 200-1000...
    Well, I didn't win the Powerball, so I still collect Russian Crap and variants thereof. ( And am darn happy I can!)

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1570
    (9/16/01 12:05:01 am)
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    Well, just saw "Enemy at the Gates" for the first time, and I think I figured out where all those dings and scratches on my 91/30s came from, the ACTORS rolled them in the rubble!

    Almost cried when that laminated got dropped, never saw a laminated 91/30 yet...

    Pretty decent about the facts, the last was changed, in real life he shot the Nazi through the sheetmetal. And while his antsy political officer DID get blown away at that time, it was his back-up with the helmet on the stick the Nazi shot at that Vasilie saw...

    This was played up for propaganda while it was happening by BOTH sides, but when it was over, the Kraut was merely listed as MIA at Stalingrad, and they dropped it, so I think we can believe MOST of it...

    Plus I got to see what my M95 Nagant was really used for...though I wish I had a Tokarev like the first General used privately...I guess the Nagant was only used for the "peasants."
    Well, I didn't win the Powerball, so I still collect Russian Crap and variants thereof. ( And am darn happy I can!)
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