Question about SBR

Discussion in 'NFA Firearms & Related Items' started by s3p3, Jul 15, 2010.

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  1. s3p3

    s3p3 New Member

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    I am thinking about building an SBR AR15 and had a question. I have been reading many different forums and wasn't really finding the answers I was looking for. When building the SBR, the lower is the part requiring the $200 tax stamp, correct? With this I already know that I could swap uppers say with a 10.5" and a 16" but would the 10.5" upper require anything as far as tax stamp? I know that I would need to have the lower engraved with Name, City, and State(I know I have to find the specifics as far as depth) and I have a good idea of the form that would be sent in.

    I am just in the researching stage of this right now and trying to figure a few things out before moving forward.
  2. Shopnut

    Shopnut Former Guest

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    I do not own an SBR, but I have lurked and posted for years on http://www.subguns.com and read a bit of the CGA/NFA myself. Here is how I understand it.

    The lower receiver is the part that is engraved and registered with the ATF. The upper receiver and barrel do not require anything. The serial number is required to be at least 1/8th inch high and .003" deep, so this is safe for the rest of the engraving also. You can get the ATF form 1 from the subguns or ATF websites. Make sure you print out the forms double sided and fill in all of the blocks that are not reserved for the ATF, even if it is just "N/A".

    You might get better answers from the Subguns NFA forum, but it is an old style format and the answers go away after a matter of days and become harder to find in the archives. Good luck.
  3. gunpir8

    gunpir8 New Member

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    Shopnut is right on the money! Just did it a few weeks ago. I had excellent guidance since I went straight to the BATF office and had them help me fill out the form and explain everything to me. Form 1 on the BATF website is the wrong form unless it has changed in the last few weeks. See if you can contact your local BATF office. They were alot of help.
  4. Shopnut

    Shopnut Former Guest

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    I downloaded the ATF form 1 from the ATF website at the beginning of the year for a silencer. It was approved in about four months. The current form looks like the one I used last. It says OMB No. 1140-001 (9/30/2010) at the top and ATF form 1 (5320.1) Revised September 2007 on the bottom.

    I have heard that they will accept the older forms for a while, but I think this one is the currant form. You can call them in WV at 1 (304)616-4500. They are the guys that deal with form approval and should know. But remember, every time they pick up the phone to answer someone's question means less time spent rubber stamping forms for approval. :)
  5. bravo619

    bravo619 New Member

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    I'm thinking that when they had me measure overall length and barrel length that's what you are registering with the batf, also the engraved receiver that goes with the said measured barrel and setup. i just got two stamps for SBR back and I'm pretty fresh on this. but don't know how much of an issue it is to swap uppers. i have always heard you could swap them out like 6.8 and back to 223. but don't think that applies to a sbr registered gun. CALL BATF AND ASK FOR ATF AGENT Al Lamburger HE'LL HELP YOU OUT AND IS SUPER FAST ON RETURNS AND VERY NICE!
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2010
  6. JasonMarks

    JasonMarks New Member

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    You don't have to engrave the receiver of a lower you bought from a manufacturer.. (example: aero precision). Since the manufactured lower, which has a serial number on it, (yes, because you had to have a background check done and have it shipped to a FFL), if you bought it properly. So you have a serial number on the lower that Aero manufactured for you. Aero has engraved on their lowers the city and state. And the caliber is listed on the barrel when you put it together. So... looking at FORM1 as it READS:

    Line4a Name and Location of ORIGINAL MANUFACTURER of FIREARM (receiver)
    that is what it says. so what do you write there? your name? NOPE.
    in this example the original manufacturer was AERO their location is Tacoma
    Washington.

    Line4b Type of Firearm. What are you building? SBR

    Line4c Caliber Gauge or Size. What barrel are you putting on? 223,308, 300?

    Line4D Model. Aero lists the model number on the lower you bought. Put
    that model number in that line

    Line4e Length of barrel . measure and write it down

    Line4f Overall . Length of gun... measure and write it down.

    Line4G Serial Number . Aero ALREADY has a serial number on the lower, it is what what put on it when (remember now), the ORIGINAL MANUFACTURER made the lower, as required by law, which happens to be AERO, not YOU. Put that serial number down. THAT is what law enforcement (duh) uses to identify the gun. Since you filled out your form 1, when they run that, it will show you have a SBR, and when you show your paper work when asked for, they will see in fact, the SBR you have, is correctly registered, because the manufacturer, the address, the location, the serial number... all that, is correct.

    Line I (eye) why do you intend to make (put together) a firearm (SBR, which you are applying for) : Reason: It is my stinkin right. (don't put that however). Just put because you are a collector, or any other legal reason.

    Why would you then need to carve the crap out of your work of art with an EXTRA serial number? Show me where in FORM 1 it tells you to do that. SHOW me where in the GCA it says that. Show me where in the NFA it says that. Show me where the ATF says that. IT doesn't. Does your car have your name and an extra serial number on it? What has two serial numbers and why are two serial numbers needed?

    Ignorant sheep following ignorant sheep. Look it up yourself. Any intelligent person filling out the forms CORRECTLY knows you don't have to engrave a "previously manufactured lower. "

    So , you ask,when would you engrave a lower with your name, address and serial number? When YOU manufactured it on your CNC machine, or if you bought a 80 percent lower, that has no serial number or name on it, and finished the work yourself. THEN, you are required to do what, in this case AERO, has already done.

    No where on FORM 1 does it have a second set of lines that ask AGAIN, for ANOTHER different serial number, name or state. (that is a huge clue) Remeber a manufactured lower you bought wasn't MADE by you, it was made by someone else. Example AERO.

    Carve your work of art up if you want, it just damages resale....
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2013
  7. deadin

    deadin Well-Known Member

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    Which came first? The chicken or the egg?
    It's my understanding that you can't assemble (or even "possess" the parts of) a SBR until your form is approved by the BATF, so how are you supposed to measure it???
  8. Alpo

    Alpo Well-Known Member

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    deadin, are you wondering about buying one, or making one.

    If buying one, while YOU cannot have it, the registered owner that you are buying from has the gun. Measure it. No problem.

    If making one, it does not have to be that precise. My shotgun has eleven inch barrels. Are they 11.1 inches? 10.8 inches? I don't know. Marked it at eleven inches and cut them, then crowned them. They are close enough to eleven inches that it don't matter.

    The only time you need to be super-precise is when you have something that is right on the edge of needing to be papered. If you have a rifle with a 16 inch barrel, you need to be real certain it's not 15.9 inches, 'cause that can get you arrested.

    It's like this. The top pistol.

    [​IMG]

    It has a 4-inch barrel. I just went and measured it with a tape measure. 4 1/8 inch. Then I used a caliper. 4.120 inches. No big. It's a 4-inch barrel.
  9. deadin

    deadin Well-Known Member

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    My question was about line 4f on the form requesting a permission to make a SBR.
    How can you measure the overall length unless you have both parts in your possession, which I understand is illegal until you have the approval. (I know you could estimate it, but the instruction says "measure", not "guess".);)
  10. WHSmithIV

    WHSmithIV Well-Known Member

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    Actually, having the barrel shouldn't be illegal at all. You can order a barrel and an upper receiver and have them shipped to your door. They don't go to a FFL. Then, apply to build it. Until you assemble it you do not own a SBR. Once you have the tax stamp, go ahead and put it together.

    However, if you are planning on buying a 10.5" barrel, then that is what you will get. The manufacturer is selling a 10.5 inch barrel. So, you can simply list 10.5" on the form since that is what you will get. Filling out overall length now is the problem - that would include any stock and barrel extension device...
  11. Alpo

    Alpo Well-Known Member

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    >Until you assemble it you do not own a SBR.<

    ATF does not agree with that statement. If you have the parts to put it together, whether it is put together or not, you have the gun.

    But, as I said about my shotgun. When I filled out my Form 1, I told them "eleven inches". When I got the approved form back, I marked out eleven inches and cut the barrels. Is it a little bit longer than eleven? I don't know. A little bit shorter than eleven? Don't know that either. Does it matter? NO.

    If you want to make an SBR by cutting your AR down to 10 inches, put "ten inches" on the form. If, after the cutting and the crowning, the actual length is 9 7/8 inches, or 10 1/4 inches, nobody gives a rat's ass.

    Like I said about that pistol. It's a 4-inch barrel. S&W says it's a 4-inch barrel. Holsters that fit it are for a 4-inch barrel. On the dang 4473 I filled out when it bought it, it says it's a 4-inch barrel. But it's not 4 inches. It's 4.120 inches. So what. It does not matter.

    ATF does not care if your SBR has a 10 inch barrel or a 10.0036 inch barrel. All they care about is - it is under 16 inches and you paid them 200 dollars.
  12. WHSmithIV

    WHSmithIV Well-Known Member

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    Using this context that Alpo lists, you can put everything together and simply NOT buy that 10.5" barrel until after you get the stamp. You have the lower receiver, the stock assembled an upper receiver but, without that barrel you don't have a SBR. So, before you order / put a barrel on the upper receiver, measure what is built, add 10.5" for the barrel and you have your length.
  13. Tigerstripe

    Tigerstripe Member

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    im sorry to tell you that you are wrong. take it with a grain of salt. the manufacturer is not making an SBR, you are. the weapon has to be engraved to show that it is now an NFA product.
    you are the original manufacturer of a short barrel rifle. if the lower is sold it has to be sold as a SBR. paperwork, background check and $200 tax on both ends if out of state.
    here is another time saver. measure your overall length with a 16 inch bbl. make a list on a seperate paper of all the cals and all the lengthsoverall and bbl length.
    10.5 in bbl oal xxx cal 5.56.
    12 in bbl oal xxx cal 300 blackout.
    6 in bbl oal xxx cal 22.
    list anything you may build. you have to list it before you are allowed to cut it.
    i made a list and was told if i want more than whats on the list to add to the list and send BATFE a copy.
  14. Tigerstripe

    Tigerstripe Member

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    wrong again. have you ever seen the notations on short bbls for sale? all NFA rules apply. that means if you dont have the paper and stamp dont buy it yet.
  15. WHSmithIV

    WHSmithIV Well-Known Member

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    Not true for buying the parts. When you buy a stripped lower receiver and the FFL calls it in he does not specify 'pistol' or 'long gun'. You can perfectly legally build a 10.5 inch barrel on it as a pistol build AR 15. You simply have to build it as a pistol build. You can't put a vertical fore grip on it, you CAN put an angled fore grip on it. You can't use an adjustable or rifle stock, you have to use a pistol stock and that's it. There actually is NO barrel length defined by the BATF for a pistol build AR. Barrels are available from 7½" on up and can be shipped to your door. The following picture is a perfectly legal 10½" barrel pistol AR. This one just happens to have been designed in 9mm. I can build one in .223, 300 Blackout or any other caliber I can build on a stripped lower.
    9mmpistol1.png
  16. Tigerstripe

    Tigerstripe Member

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    i agree. that is an NFA rule. NFA rules apply means do it right, is all i mean. if you dont have a pistol lower, having a short bbl is asking for trouble.
  17. Alpo

    Alpo Well-Known Member

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    I believe the "all NFA rules apply" disclaimer is so that if you put that 14" upper they sold you onto a regular AR lower, and got arrested, you have no legal standing with the defense, "He sold it to me. How can it sell it if it ain't legal?", and thereby dragging THEM into your trial.

    I don't know, for sure, if "constructive possession" counts with SBS or SBR, but I DO know it counts with machine guns. There used to be a thing called a "drop-in auto sear". Supposedly, putting it in your AR would turn your AR into full-auto. Lots of people were buying them, getting ready for when civilization collapsed at Y2K. They'd buy it and put it on the shelf. "Long as it's not in the gun, the gun's not a machine gun, so I'm legal. Then if the fecal matter strikes the rotary oscillator, all I gotta do is drop it in. I'll be READY!!"

    ATF made a ruling. "Uh-uh, bub. You got the sear, you got an AR? You've got a machine gun, whether it's in there or not."

    Being afraid of "quarter-million-dollar fine" and "ten years in the Graybar Hotel", I try, very hard, not to get on the bad side of the ATF.
  18. Tigerstripe

    Tigerstripe Member

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    the drop ins became illegal unless made before 1986 in 86. i saw them for sale at gun shows before and after. constructive possesion does apply to SBS and SBR. thats why you are told not to make it until the papers come to you. you cant just be sitting on a bunch of short shotgun bbls. if there is no paperwork its illegal to posess.
    if you dont own a papered machine gun but do have an AR being in posession of an M-16 parts kit is illegal. you can buy it, but "all NFA rules apply"
  19. gdmoody

    gdmoody Moderator Supporting Member

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    Here is a 14 .5 inch upper assembly, do you realry think it was made before 1986? I can order a it at any time I want and since there is no SN on it so there is basically no record of it. If I put that on my AR lower, it is on me, not on the company who sold it to me.

    http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Barrel_Assembly_p/dt1018.htm
  20. WHSmithIV

    WHSmithIV Well-Known Member

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    There is no such thing as 'a pistol lower'. The lower receiver used for an AR 15 rifle or pistol is the exact same lower receiver. When the FFL calls in the 4473 to transfer a stripped lower receiver he specifies 'other', not 'long gun' or 'hand gun'. That's it. Build what you want on it. It is up to the owner of the lower to build it in compliance with ATF regs. as a pistol or rifle.
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